The Truth About Living Faith Fellowship

the end?

2008-04-16T21:13:00.001-07:00

The stories, memories and struggles shared on this site are real. These are the tales of hundreds who have suffered through the trap of Living Faith Fellowship in Pullman, Washington.

We will never escape the memories and some wounds will never heal. But many have found life anew, outside the confining walls of judgment, free from the lies of Living Faith.

The comment boards will remain open for discussion, because flashes of pain and anger haunt, and sometimes you simply need the ear of someone who understands.

We pray this site will serve as a beacon to future seekers.

from the comments

2007-07-12T11:06:00.000-07:00

And so we go, sometimes forward, sometimes to the places we started, time, unforgiving train, never stopping to wait for any. Each with a thought of what we would if we could, or maybe what we wouldn’t. Familiarity we share, never waiting permission, clumsily pulls us together and tears us apart. Regrets we know better than to have, an itch, there to remind us when our minds finally find rest.

We were only children. How could we have known? Who should we tell that we had to watch our parents cry? It was for God! Wasn’t it? We were going to be righteous. We were a step above, set apart. We were on fire, righteous indignation. We did what we had to, anything, to survive. Some fought, some ran, and some learned to pretend.

The good news, I stopped caring. The bad news, about anything. That’s why I’m not mad at you, I lost that ability when I was 12. I’m indifferent, I think. Except for one thing. I would drag myself, crawling, across all the hot asphalt in the world, to save your children from you.

I’d introduce them to the God you lost somewhere in all your religion.

Catching Up

2007-06-29T18:14:00.000-07:00

Received via email sometime ago. Sorry for the delayed post.

It’s been thirteen years since the Lord Jesus rescued me and brought me out of darkness (LFF) and into His marvelous light. I only spent four years there, but they were the formative years of my relationship with Jesus, and it has taken years to unravel the harm that was done to my soul by abusive leaders. He has been so gracious to me throughout this entire experience and tonight after reading the blog I am filled with faith that each of you will find your road to healing in Him and be made whole again, or for the first time. Your pain is real. I validate you, not that you need me to validate you, or anyone really, but sometimes that helps. I was not so fortunate. I did not have a blog to turn to. In fact, the first church my hubby and I attended didn’t even know what to do with me, so we began going to every church in our town and surrounding towns looking for someone who understood and it was a few years before I met someone who had been through a Shepherding movement and was delivered from it. He and his sweet wife heard my whole story-it took hours and hours. They cried with me, held my hand, we got on our knees together and wept and cried out for Jesus to heal my broken heart. This validation healed me. I had thought I was losing my mind and had disqualified myself like Esau from his birthright (because I married a divorced man). I left that room a healed woman. I got in my car and felt happy for the first time in two years. These sweet people were so wise. They told me to be patient with myself, to forgive myself frequently, to talk to Jesus a lot, that He was not some mean dictator in Heaven waiting to hammer me into dust and that it might take years before all that ugly pharisaical leaven would be worked out of my life. They were right. Even as I read this blog I realized that some of the issues I have with my darling daughters is because of the harshness in discipline I experienced myself at LFF.

I also learned through the years that Our Father in Heaven is nothing like these people who ruled over us with an iron fist and kept us in fear. He is kind, and it’s His kindness that leads us to repentance, not someone digging around glaring at you and confronting you with your “whatever” sin. NO, He is not like them at all. He saved me from this mess and I still thank Him to this day for His amazing love towards me. I also thank Him because the man I married is also amazing. He has been so patient, gracious, loving, and gentle with me over the years. He has also endured much as a result of what I allowed LFF to do to me. When I got done reading this blog I just ran over to him and thanked him for being my hero. He told me that I was worth it all! At LFF I was not worth much at all, always screwing up, always being confronted with my attitudes and sin. Now, I must admit, there were times this was merited, but again, I have learned that the Holy Spirit, given the chance, will convict you of all sin and give you the opportunity to repent and change. They never gave Him a chance. The other thing is He is gentle and lowly and they were harsh and vindictive. In order to heal well we must discover first who God really is—not looking at people, but at Him. How we choose to view Him will determine everything.

I thought it would be valuable to write to encourage the wounded to persevere—healing is possible. God has been gracious to me and as I chose to be honest and lay it all out like it really was, in time, His love has covered over a lot of inadequacies. He has also restored so much. At the ten year mark, after I left, I received a phone call from one of my precious friends from those days, she asked me to forgive her and I was at that time ready to do so, then another wrote asking for forgiveness, then Kari and I saw each other and she asked me privately, away from our mutual friend, to forgive her, thankfully, I already had. This was another piece of the healing-to be able to forgive before being asked, but that takes time. Then, Julie Kobelin called and asked me to forgive her (she had been the most abusive towards me) and I already had forgiven her too. She wanted me to specifically tell her all that she had done to hurt me so she could specifically ask forgiveness, but the cool thing was, I couldn’t really think of anything, all the sting was gone. Love had covered over the multitude of inadequacies. Now, I do not have any real relationships with anyone from LFF except one and she is a treasure indeed, but I have no desire to pursue any of those relationships. It is time to move forward and those that really loved me came forth—one. That is a sobering reality after you spent so much time with people only to discover what you thought was real wasn’t all that real after all. I really have no issues with anyone from LFF anymore. However, I have a huge heart for those on this blog and those who are even now being harassed. I have been praying for years for freedom to come to this place. I will not give up in prayer.

Reading about the PCS kids breaks my heart to pieces. I will commit myself to pray more for you. You suffered the most. I was a nursery worker and loved you so very much and my heart ached that you were never with your parents…oh sweet souls may He who is able bind up every single one of your wounds and plant you by healing waters. There is a chapter in Ezekiel 34, I think, anyway, about the bad shepherds and the sheep roaming the hills, you are those precious hurting, lost, and wounded sheep wandering the hills, but not forever—hang in there.

I guess we all want to tell our story. It amazes me that when I attended LFF no one dared ever speak any of these things, yet so many of us were feeling them…big sigh…we were just being critical, oh how we needed to know that testing the spirits is of God and that we also were the Lord’s anointed…..how dare they touch us…His sweet children…may the Lord have mercy.

I was a brand new convert zealous for Jesus and eager to find a church like the one in Acts. I thought I found that at LFF. My life was transformed at Heartbeat Retreat. It was the real deal. I have not been the same since. Water baptism was powerful for me and I spent my whole Freshman year full of the Holy Spirit and just so in love with Jesus and following hard after Him in any way I could. I did not start out wanting to please leadership only Jesus. This was a great year for me. I found freedom from my previous life of sin and rest for my soul. I will always remember that year with great fondness. Then, I became a JCD my sophomore year and that all changed. The truth began to stare me in the face, but who would dare say anything, not me, I didn’t want to be rebellious, or critical, even though I always was found that way. I was a messy person, messy with a lot of worldly baggage, a lot to undue to become more like Jesus, but now I see, I was a mere infant in Christ…holy moly…it’s a miracle any of us survived this kind of scrutiny.

The first time I realized that something was seriously wrong was when the Koeblins were leaving for Russia and I went home and cried tears of rejoicing because Julie wouldn’t be around anymore to torment me with her ceaseless demands and cruel words. I couldn’t tell anyone why I was crying, it was so lonely. Then, that summer after visiting my mom, after begging for permission to be released from my unbelievable ministry responsibilities, I was on my way to Pullman, pulled off at Ellensburg for gas and when I got back on the highway and without realizing what I was doing I found myself heading back towards my mom’s house, oh, how I should have kept on going….it went on like this in many ways my whole senior year. The Lord was good to me and caused me to have a back problem right after my senior year that forced me to rest and made people say way judgmental things to me about my condition. God totally healed me, but then I was in massive pain due to the healing….

During this time it became even more obvious to me that He wanted me out of LFF, but I was struggling because my pride was so invested into this place. He and I argued a lot about this, but He kept bringing situations so I couldn’t avoid the truth anymore. When I left to student teach I actually felt strings being cut from my back (like rubber bands) and the strings were retracting back to LFF. I felt free and felt guilty for feeling that way. I had no idea that my high school sweetheart was waiting for me to get home so he could steal me away from this craziness—he was my knight in shinning armor, though at the time, I thought he was sent by satan. Finally, the Lord convinced me that it was truly His will for me to marry this great guy, so of course the cost on my side was losing all my “friends” at LFF, but many had already forgotten me, out of sight, out of mind, but I went back one last time just to be sure it was God that I marry this guy—of course the leadership said no, he was divorced and used goods (even though this happened when he wasn’t saved…the unpardonable sin…) and as I was there I was sooooo confused, but it was good to see them all. I really missed everyone. On my way back to my mom’s house my car broke down on the pass and God told me that my boyfriend needed to be the one to come get me although I called many and many were willing…I had stayed totally pure in my relationship with him, but the thought entered into my head that if I slept with him I would be so humiliated that I would never go back to LFF and it would be easier that way-YIKES, so I lured that poor guy and made him compromise himself too---just so I wouldn’t feel so condemned about leaving LFF. That is my largest regret—that I didn’t have the guts to just leave LFF, but thankfully, God has forgiven us this also, but I saw clearly how whacked this whole thing was and just said good-bye.

Now, I have to say that I really do believe that God takes everything and works it for good and I have often thanked God for all the many things HE did in my life while I was there. I did learn how to serve others in love, I did learn how to do everything as to the Lord, I do have a solid foundation that I have continued to build on, I did learn how to hear His voice and how to go against the flow in order to follow Him. I am grateful that there was good to be taken from such a harmful situation. I still have a whole lot of love for people who have left and the people there. I actually really love the Vances and pray for them often. I didn’t know the Barden’s all that well, but I do pray that they would find freedom and seek to restore what they broke down. I believe all things are possible. I really believe He is who He says He is and that His word and His Spirit are enough to satisfy and bring us to wholeness again. I pray that as believers we will stop harming each other and start assisting each other in His love and under His direction, not under man made religious systems full of the traditions of men. I pray for the Church that call themselves by His holy name to rally under His banner which is LOVE. I pray for people to stop following men and their opinions and to follow Jesus the Christ—our savior our kind Lord.

We home churched with another couple for five years and it was the BEST…we really learned how to rely and depend on Him alone. He has just recently brought us out of the wilderness and called us to break down religious systems that are killing God’s precious children. I feel awake, alert, and sound of mind for the first time in too many years. God’s spirit is moving everywhere…He is roaming the hills and finding His lost sheep and restoring them. In fact, one of the small home groups we attend is called: Compass Ministries, our whole focus is Jesus and being His hands to comfort those who have had so much stolen from them. God keeps collecting them and bringing them to us. God is raising up an army of those wounded who He is healing and He is taking their brokenness and glorifying Himself in it. The world doesn’t want religion---it wants a Jesus who saves them from the torment of sin!!!! The church needs a Jesus who is real and binds up their wounds.

Oh I pray for the comfort of these hurting people Jesus, be ever near their aching hearts, place your presence around them that they may know that Your love is perfect and Your ways are sound. Touch them with gentleness and take off heavy yokes and burdens and show them that Your way is easy and light. Lift off the depression, self-loathing, and sting of the harm done against them. Touch each one here with Your real concern and care for their individual situation. Jesus, bring back to them seven times what was stolen from them.

I will keep praying.

Quote

2007-06-17T21:27:00.000-07:00

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Unknown

Were the atrocities committed at LFF simply blindly done because of twisted theological beliefs? Thoughts?

Baptism

2007-06-08T19:23:00.001-07:00

In the 'Question of Forgiveness' blog Nikkoly said

"I was just baptized again this past Sunday as a
consecration to the Lord, to free me form religious
bondage, spiritual abuse, and half truths that kept me
in despair for WAY too long. I came out of those
waters with even more love and freedom. I highly
recommend it for any who were baptized at LFF."

For my husband and I, even though we don't agree with
a lot of what goes on at LFF, both of us feel that our
baptism experience was sincere and between us and the
Lord. We actually left a church recently because they
told us that unless we provided papers to show we were
baptized that we would have to get re-baptized to
become members. When we told them our reasonings for
not wanting to contact LFF, they insisted that we get
re-baptized no matter what. That didn't sit well with
us because to us baptism is between you and God, not
you and a church and it's certainly not to obtain a
piece of paper.

We now have philosophical disagreements with the
speaking in tongues that was to happen "by faith" as
you rose from the waters (if you hadn't previously
been baptized by the holy spirit) but despite all that
I feel that God used my baptism, even if those
preforming it weren't totally correct, my God is big
enough to use that experience for his Glory. I don't
personally think I need to get re-baptized. Just as I
no longer believe that a saved person can be possessed
by demons and need deliverance; another LFF teaching

I may have been taught some crazy wacked out doctrine
at LFF, but I think over the years God heals wounds
and rights wrongs.

What are everyone's thoughts on the subject?

Concerned Family...

2007-05-21T23:05:00.000-07:00

Received via email. Is this familiar to anyone?

Hello,

I'm not sure if you're who I should direct this letter too, but if not, if you could direct it to someone else? I would really appreciate it.

My sister is currently on multiple anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications, plus some to help her sleep. Despite the medication, she has anxiety that won't resolve and frequent migranes. We think a lot of her stress is due to the church she has been attending. Almost 6 years ago my sister moved to Pullman to attend college. She'd always been pretty quiet and never had a large group of friends, so we were happy when she said she was attending a church down there and had made many friends through it. However, the more she talked about it, the more uncomfortable my family was with the church. Her activities in the church began to take over her life. Whenever we tried to talk to her about it, she just brushed it off and said she'd finally found a church where she really wanted to participate. To us, however, it seemed like the church was drawing her in and not allowing her the time to make friends or participate in activities outside of it. At one time, she was even set on going to an African country deep in war on a service mission. She said the church told her she'd been called to go. She hadn't felt called, they told her she was. Luckily, it ended up not working out for her to go. The past six years have been agonizing as we recognized there was something not right about this situation, but were powerless to change things. Now, thankfully, she has decided the city does not allow her to finish the training needed in her career and she will be moving back home in a few weeks. We are ecstatic that she's leaving the church and cannot wait for her to come home. I don't know how deeply this church has affected her over the past years, and I want to be able to help her get over some of the things that have been impressed into her.

After this long ramble, my question is, do you have any advice on helping someone who has just left the church? I think she's still a big fan of them. I like to think that she will just magically be okay, but I worry that may not be true. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Question of Forgivenes

2007-04-18T22:51:00.000-07:00

Received via email:

I have seen many times on the blog, and often wondered myself why the current, and past Sr. Pastors would not admit any fault or ask forgiveness for the wrongs they've done. It's so obvious to all of us that they had major flaws in their practices, but that they turned such a blind eye to it. They put the wrongs back on our shoulders as we went and talked with them about specific issues.

I have been gone from lff for many years now and have heard stories of various pastors asking forgiveness. I'm pretty sure that all of the pastors (except Bardens and Vances) have been very open about admitting wrong and asking forgiveness. I'm wondering if anyone has been contacted by the Bardens or the Vances or talked to them and had them admit wrong or ask forgiveness. I'm not talking about forgiveness like at the members meeting where everyone went to the microphone and put it all out on the table and they said "Please forgive us" a hundred times and mostly on behalf of the Sr. Pastors who weren't present at the meeting. That was helpful in the sense that it was one of the first times were all able to be truly honest at a members meeting, but I'm talking about a more real conversation where they say that they were wrong and that they are sorry for the hurt and damage they caused? Just curious. To me, that says a lot towards real change. So far I haven't heard of it happening other than outward changes to church meetings and home group structure types of changes.

I know that Beckers and Kobelins have asked forgiveness; the wife-halves of those couples have asked forgiveness of folks. Interesting, I hadn't thought of this before, but I think all of the women in the church had a whole lot more to forgive than the men. I have a lot of respect for the fact that they can admit where they screwed up and apologize. This could be a tough one to comment on without exposing who you are but I'd love to know if there is any recognition that they did wrong and they are making things right. It won't make me run back to lff but it will help me to know God is working on their hearts--maybe. I still pray for that. They've had their chance with me, and I would never put myself in the position to be hurt by them again. That would be foolish. But for the future since they are still ministering, I hope and pray that they will do better with those that walk through their doors.

Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear that something is happening in this area. If not, well, I guess I will continue to pray. God is big enough to do it, if He so chooses.

Take care,
pastlffer

The nail that sticks out gets hammered

2007-04-12T21:27:00.000-07:00

Received via email.

When I was at LFF it seemed to me that anybody who had a differing idea on any subject was silenced. You were to "disagree agreeably" which meant shut your mouth and suffer the consequences of your actions. You were treated with suspicion of being a dissenter, your life was meticulously picked apart and minor things were turned into major "sin issues." If you "Rebelled" or refused to conform, you were ostracized, excluded, even excommunicated just as many others have stated on this blog. The divisive and manipulative leadership of the Living Faith Fellowship uses this fear to suppress and control the people.

Since my exit from LFF I wonder if there are any left who battle "Group Think".
Are those who go against the flow still treated the same way? In hindsight, I should have been more of a thorn in their side, doggedly questioning publicly their practices and ideas. Lowering my shoulder, persevering in the face of their devices. The sacrifices of a few meant to ease and prevent the suffering of many and better the health of the church.

Those who read and agree with me, please speak up. The ongoing refusal to publicly admit wrong and accept any form of criticism is one of the main weaknesses of LFF's current leadership. If you are currently attending the church and striving to make a difference, I admire your efforts, but don't let them get the best of you. You will find support here on this blog as well as from others within the church who do not accept the Group Think--if there are any left. I am sure the admin of this blog would post your account, igniting a dialog and penning a record.

Finally to the administrator(s) of this blog, You are a gentle man\lady and a scholar, I owe my thanks to you, this blog has helped me beyond description and I'm confident it has helped many others.

The Irony of Living Faith

2007-04-10T08:56:00.000-07:00

Now days, when I think of my time spent at LFF I chuckle to my self and laugh as if it was a bad dream. I usually scold myself for being so foolish, and then I think about the many humorous and ironic things that I witnessed that could really only happen at LFF.

Did you ever think that they should be called response to opinion forms?

Have you ever been told that you lack self control by a fat person?

Did you ever take a math class from CMT?

Did you ever pretend to laugh real hard so that the people who were scowling at you would know you were touched by God?

Does it ever seem odd that the people with the most screwed up family taught mirror?

Living Faith is the only church I know that hasn't had a split: Instead of going to another church, all it's members just stopped going to church.

The most judgmental people I've ever met preach that we should extend them grace.

A pastor told me that if I wanted to continue serving in the areas that I loved I would need to come to morning prayer. Then she told me she stayed up all night and came to prayer at 6 AM. But at 7 when the meeting was over I was one hour late for work and she went to bed.

Karl Barden would use many citations in "Leadership Class" from his favorite book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." He figured out the influencing part, but where are his friends?

There are plenty more ironic things and I hope you can think of a few but I am a few minutes late for morning prayer.

Easter Sunday

2007-04-08T13:12:00.000-07:00

Every year that I attended Living Faith, I dreaded one thing: door to door advertizing for the Easter play. Now it’s not that I’m a shy person, it’s just that I’ve never been fond of people knocking on my door unless they were invited. I don’t care if they are selling encyclopedias, campaigning for office, or just trying to get me into heaven. I appreciate the effort but really, don’t need encyclopedias, I have an internet connection, I will be voting your stance on the issues at hand, and I am not interested in scientology, the Jehovah’s whiteness, or any other solicitation of any kind. And I know that this feeling runs though out. The moment the do-not-call list came out; it was set out in church, and passed in home groups and other meetings.

So regardless of how others felt, we went out into the streets and knocked on people’s doors. Without hesitation we explained that we had the best show in town, like some crooked Broadway producers, and then finished up with an always strong “we’ll have donuts.” And like that the door was shut and we would move happily to the next house as invite after invite was thrown right into the trash.

For this act of self indulgence we spared no expense, printing thousands of half page color leaflets, and used them to proclaim to the city:

“We don’t care to know you during the year! Even though you’re my neighbor, I’ve been to busy to make you cookies because I’ve been serving at church. I really don’t care to know you, unless you come to my church, so if you would like to know me, this card says where I can be found.”

And year after year we engaged in this act of self promotion, wasting thousands of dollars and man hours trying to boost the attendance number for one day so we could feel better about our efforts that we put into our amateur production of a classic story. And after it was all over we would spend a week or two, congratulating ourselves on a job well done. Referring to the one uneducated person who had “never seen a betters show in there life” and who had obviously never seen another show before now. Telling ourselves that we were almost as good as broad way, whilst the audience sat in the dark for 2:49 as a props crew of 23 or so bumbled along in the dark.

I hear they no longer have to go door to door, but I went to the play today and it’s the same old. Not an improvement since I left. The leper gets healed, then Jesus dies, the leper is sad, then Jesus rises, then the choir sings everyone out on stage, you know, the usual.

After I went, I was just thinking how happy I was that I didn’t have to be involved and flunk my mid-terms so people would like me.

It’s a good feeling to be free.

Administrative Note

2007-04-07T18:40:00.000-07:00

We have added a widget to the sidebar that will allow you to subscribe to the blog via email. We encourage you to also visit the blog and participate in the comments. There have been lively debates and insightful advice by many users, so please continue to contribute.

God Bless and Happy Easter!

Success of the blog

2007-04-06T11:48:00.000-07:00

In addition to helping us all heal, the blog has been successful in other ways. While dealing with the establishment of Living Faith Fellowship and its puppeteers is important, spreading awareness is equally important and was one of the original goals of the blog.

Some evidence of success:

When you search "Living Faith Fellowship" in google, the blog is the 4th result! Here is a little more information on how Google page ranking works
When you search "Karl Barden" in google, the blog is the number one result!
When you search "Kari Vance" in google, the blog is the 7th result.

Blog readership:

At the time of this post, the blog has received 104,062 visits.
As many as 800 unique viewers a day.

We have received dozens of emails from concerned friends, parents and families of current members asking for more information regarding this church. Many parents have voiced concern over their children's level of involvement, even to the point of some students not finishing college. Others have lost touch with loved ones because their lifestyle did not align with the church's moral views.

Whatever the case, we hope that this blog continues to serve its purpose and help people make an informed decision about participation & attendance at Living Faith Fellowship. At the very least it may encourage people who currently attend the church to second guess what they hear sometimes and ask questions about why things are the way they are.

Excerpts

2007-04-05T12:27:00.000-07:00

The Question: "How many people are still Christians after LFF?"

Excerpts from the comments:

-I feel closer to God to have a real biblical knowledge of him, rather than man's messed up views.

-We SHOULD question, we SHOULD look for sincerity and for spiritual leaders who aren't all about prospering financially...etc. etc. etc. I'm finally happy in church again and my kids will grow up knowing the LOVE and GRACE of Jesus Christ. Lucky them...

-We're just now (almost 10 years after leaving) getting a vision of what GRACE really means and learning to trust again. Sad to think we lost almost 20 years of our lives - almost 10 years there + almost 10 years post-LFF - to their skewed teachings. Thank God for the Christians He's brought into our lives since then who have helped us.

-I do not believe in hell or sin anymore so I am not a Christian. I believe we humans make our own hell here on Earth. And so many things are done poorly in the name of God by we mere mortals. I am more about the Goddess and peace and love and karma and good deeds and yoga and NOT judgment and negative un-acceptance which is what I got from LFF.

-not sure...not sure at all

-I have become an Agnostic. I don't know if Christianity is true, it has no greater claim to truth in my mind than many other ideas. I am more drawn to the idea of no god(s) and nothing after death.

-So really if Jesus is as judgmental as I was when I was in LFF I don't want it.

-There is so much corruption in the Christian community, that I've identified myself as a believer in God, but not a prescriber to religion

-LFF was a very sad place for me. Even my family memories with my husband and children are not fond memories for me because it is all tainted with so much depression and anxiety.

-If Christianity is based on what is taught from most of the pulpits in Evangelical or Charismatic (very little difference really), then I would have to say, No, I am not a Christian.

-It wasn't Jesus who constantly was disappointed in us and judged us daily, it was the leadership of LFF. Jesus is full of grace and would never treat us as they did. So many of you are blaming other christians for your loss of Christianity. How sad that you give hypocrites in the kingdom of God more power over your lives than God.

-God doesn't expect us to be perfect or he wouldn't have given us the gift of salvation. It was only LFF that expected perfection. I just can see that they really deeply hurt you but you shouldn't have to give up your salvation because of them.

-LFF created such a distorted picture of who God is and what his character is...the Bible clearly says that it's "God's Kindness" that leads to repentance. God is not a judging God yet...some day he will be but not yet! He does not have some hidden measuring stick that he uses to see who measures up and who doesn't nor does he have a hidden agenda.

a change

2007-04-04T22:04:00.000-07:00

Dear DPR,

We thank you for all the effort you have put into this site. You have posed insightful questions and moderated with grace. While we languished, in recovery, depression, and sometimes despair, you led on with dignity. Not all of us are healing and some never will. But some of us have conquered our demons, reached beyond the pain, and now seek to actively aid in the healing we once sought.

We are a few of the originators of this blog and want to bring new life to the healing. The anonymity of this blog has forced us to assume administration of this blog without consultation. Thank you to past administrators (DPR included) and future contributors for your continued support of this important effort. If you have any questions please email truthaboutlivingfaith@gmail.com

Readers,

If you have healed from the spiritual mutilation, move on. But if you still find yourself fighting, struggling, and hurting, this is the place for you. Grieving is never easy, but it is a start on the road to recovery. Please continue to send your stories. Together we will mend and warn others, telling them The Truth About Living Faith.

Thank You,

Innocence Destroyed

Got Christ?

2007-03-16T10:05:00.001-07:00

How many people are still Christians after LFF?

moderator's note: Let's get the discussion going. DPR!!!

a query

2007-03-10T10:16:00.000-08:00

I had a mom contact me concerning LFF because she stumbled upon this website. She said that her daughter is currently attending LFF and she hadsome concerns and she asked her daughter not to get baptized a few weeks ago. I talked with her daughter and her daughter was still not sure if whatI shared with her was totally acurate. I don't know if her daughter got out of LFF but she did share one thing with me....The people there have been telling her that God is going to harness her personality and I told her that they told me the same things and she felt a little pressured to do the Carpenters program and mirror programs. I just told her they are very manipulative and she should watch out for herself. I also tried to call her mom but the number her mom gave me was incorrect.

This did pose some concern for me as to if this was a bogus thing that people at LFF were trying to mess with me or others because of anger and was possibly looking to sue someone. I didn't give any names in my conversation with the girl but if it is bogus watch out for yourselves. If in fact it is a true concern of a mother...I congratulate you for caring enough about your daughter to try and save her from this church. Bare in mind that most churches are not like this one so don't lump them all together but sooner or later if your daughter is still involved they will convince her that you don't understand what God is doing in her life and that she should cut her communication with you to minimal intervals. They did this with me and I ended up totally rejecting both my parents all in the name of growing in God in a way my parents would never understand. I have apologized numerous times to my parents for this and it has been a hard long road mending our relationship due to this matter.

They will do the same with her. Pretty soon you'll start wondering if she is still on the planet or not...It has been a long hard road for me coming out of LFF but I have managed to hang on to my salvation through it all and many times just barely by tattered threads...I was suicidal for a while because I felt that God couldn't accept someone like me because I could never be spiritual enough and could never attain the servants heart that I was ment to have...this alldue to the things said to me and "SPOKEN INTO MY LIFE" while in attendance at LFF.I know now that God accepts me just how that I am and I will always have things to work on in my life but God is not LFF and not all christians are LFF and not all churches are LFF and my parents are not LFF and people around me are not LFF. GOD LOVES ME FOR ME!!!! And that's good enough!

Editor's note: This is the first letter to post that we have gotten since December. We just want to make sure you know that the blog depends on you putting in content if you want the blog to continue.
thank you, DPR!!!!

Missing Link

2006-12-06T21:26:00.000-08:00

Somone brought it to my attention that the Cult Awareness List is a pretty questionable list. After some review, I decided to remove the link to it. If someone has other information, please post it here on the blog. I think that "Twisted Scriptures" describes LFF and other churches like LFF well enough.
DPR!!!

Let it go

2006-12-02T08:29:00.000-08:00

DPR,I got this by way of e-mail today and it is exactly what I needed to hear - probably on a daily basis. I am constantly haunted by things LFF leadership said or did to me and though I feel I have moved on and forgiven as best I can I am aware daily of the impact their words and deeds continue to have on me. I read the blog from time to time and see so many other ex-LFFers still in so much pain. I've continued to hold on to dead friendships from that place, wrong images and deep hurts. This message by T.D. Jakes is very releasing to me and I hope it can help others too.
**By Bishop T. D. Jakes, Dallas, Texas
There are people who can walk away from you.
And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk away from you, let them walk. I don't want you to try to talk another person into staying with you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone.
When people can walk away from you, let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left.
The Bible said that, "They came out from us that it might be made manifest that they were not for us. For had they been of us, no doubt they would have continued with us." [1 John 2:19]
People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can't make them stay.
Let them go.
And it doesn't mean that they are a bad person. It just means that their part in the story is over. And you've got to know when people's part in your story is over so that you don't keep trying to raise the dead. You've got to know when it's dead.
You've got to know when it's over. Let me tell you something. I've got the gift of good-bye. It's the tenth spiritual gift. I believe in good-bye. It's not that I'm hateful, it's that I'm faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have, He'll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat, I don't need it. Stop begging people to stay.
Let them go!!
If you are holding onto something that doesn't belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to......
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to past hurts and pains......
LET IT GO!!!
If someone can't treat you right, love you back, and see your worth......
LET IT GO!!!
If someone has angered you......
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge......
LET IT GO!!!
If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction......
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents......
LET IT GO!!!
If you have a bad attitude......
LET IT GO!!!
If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better......
LET IT GO!!!
If you're stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in Him......
LET IT GO!!!
If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship......
LET IT GO!!!
If you keep trying to help someone who won't even try to help themselves......
LET IT GO!!!
If you're feeling depressed and stressed......
LET IT GO!!!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to......
LET IT GO!!!
Let the past be the past. Forget the former things. GOD is doing a new thing for 2007!!!
LET IT GO!!!
Get right or get left... Think about it, and then...
LET IT GO!!!
"The Battle is the Lord's!

new look

2006-11-14T22:56:00.000-08:00

Hi all, just experimenting with a Beta Version of Blogger. There are some things we would like to see on the blog (like truncated posts, and a list of recent comments). So we will see what we can do to make this work better.
FYI, since no one has submitted new posts (hint hint) people are going back and commenting on older threads, so don't forget to look back. There have been some great comments, that would be a shame to be missed.
Thanks, DPR!!!

A call for unity

2006-10-25T08:44:00.000-07:00

Preface:
ALLL-right. I am going to write this blog... know that I write out of love. Wholly out of love. Keep in mind that this earth is temporal, and I just long for Heaven. Heaven on earth is not achievable, but we are called to work for it anyhow.

Also, I'm sorry, but I am ADD. Or maybe that's just my excuse for my extreme fondness for parenthetical self-interruptions. I do not call them digressions, for I find that in my musings they add a depth... it's like breaking down an essay into an outline. You get many levels of specification. Or application. So, I apologize. I'll restrain myself as much as possible, and when it proves impossible, I will do my best to avoid confusing you. And when that proves impossible, then add a comment to this blog telling me that I failed utterly. I would be thoroughly amused. :) It wouldn't offend me since ultimately I am writing for myself.... stop. Now THAT was the beginnings of a digression.

Prologue:

My heart is sortof breaking right now... though, it's hard to break what's already broken. Hm.
We people are so cruel. We human beings... why do we hurt one another?
Note: I am not from Mars or anything. I am a human being, and thus wholly include myself in all allegations against humankind.
For several years now, one of the things that has weighed heaviest on my heart is the severe disunity of the Church. Gah! I fell into the trap of generalizations... calling Christians as a whole "the Church" is like calling the United States as a whole, all its government(s) and people(s) "the State." As with all generalizations, judgements passed often do not apply on a narrower, more specified level.
Huh. I've already had three disclaimers, and I haven't even gotten close to the point. I'll just plow ahead, then.
Severe disunity. It's like a human body, the Church. Or the church... either way. God shows us so much through how he has ordered nature. Single-celled organisms... very little. They exist of themselves. They, like every other living thing, cannot claim full independence. Everything needs its environment to live. A little bacteria in a human body, though it's its own self, needs the human body to live and function just like the human body needs the oxygen in the atmosphere and the water and a number of other external things in its environment to survive. Hmmm... A proton needs an electron and neutron to serve its purpose. An atom needs other atoms in order to fulfill its potential... to "live," per se. A molecule needs other molecules... An organ needs the other organs to function and to make a functional cell... A cell needs more cells to make an organ (bigger organ, this time), and that organ needs other organs to make a body. A body needs an earth. Earth has its incredibly specific needs in order to function ("live") as Earth. {Sidenote: It wouldn't seem that way, since the Earth just sortof is suspended in nothing. I would have written that Earth is merely maintained by God... but our planet is not the end-all. It keeps getting bigger and bigger... the solar system, the galaxy, the cluster, the universe... though ultimately "through Him all things live and move and have their being." And as far as being suspended, lonely, in space—well, don't we all feel that way? And how do you think that little bacteria floating around in you feels? Well... if it felt.} Anyway, you get my drift.
So what would happen if the electron rebelled against the atom as a whole? What happens when an indwelling bacteria attacks its host? If a liver rejected its intended function? ... Eventually the smaller unit, as well as the larger, will die. Or change.
{Oh dear. I see the need for parentheses. I have to here state that I believe in civil disobedience. I believe in giving to Caesar that which he claims, and to God all that He requires. I believe there is Truth... human authority is not the ultimate authority. That said...}
I sense not only a disunity among individuals or individual ministries in the individual church, but a severe disunity in the Church—all churches who preach and claim to believe in Jesus and the Christ, Son of the Living God, who gave himself up as a sacrifice for our sins. The spotless Passover Lamb.
We're people… yes. Sinners… O yes, yes. I know. There's that saying, "If you are looking for the perfect church, just know that when you find it once you step inside it it will no longer be perfect." Where there are fallible people, there will be strife and some amount of pain on some level.
But that's not God's will. And God is the only true Unifier out there, for only he really Loves… and only he can change the heart of man. And it is God's will that we serve Him above all else, and love eachother right under that. It is His will that we undergo a transformation of the mind. It is His will that we be one with Him, and of one mind with one another. That's His will... Like I said, however: Heaven on earth... sinfilled, fallen earth...

Body:

Moscow-Pullman and the surrounding townlets (yep, baby towns) have almost innumerable churches. All this writing is about one in particular, and how it lead me to all these thoughts. This church's name is Living Faith Fellowship.
I have known many absolutely wonderful people in my time spent in Moscow who go to or have gone to LFF. When I first came to Moscow, I had been warned by a friend who was up here a year before me not to attend there. It wasn't something I really thought about. God pretty quickly directed me to and plunked me solidly down into the Crossing. Plus, as a Freshman who knew no one, Pullman seemed far away and finding rides didn't sound like fun.
It's a large church, LFF. The bigger the church, the more fallible people in one place. I was not perturbed by anything I ever heard about the church. Flying opinions don't find they're mark in me, sinking in and becoming my own. I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the church.
Today, however, I got onto a blog on blogspot… truthaboutlivingfaith.blogspot, if you want to look it up.
Basically, for those of you who don't, it's a blog begun by people who have suffered at the hands of other people and have left the church. I had, as I mentioned, heard things about the church. Reading people's writing about it has a very different effect.

The reason this brought up the old weight on my heart is that, though I know the pain they are feeling is as valid as any feeling, it appears that the blog has no purpose other than to mull over, dwell on, fester with that pain. I read many different entrants' opinions and inputs. There are varying opinions. Some were from people still in the church, gently or not-so-gently defending what they know and love. Most are from people outside of the church. Some bitter, enraged, blatantly admitting an inability to forgive, and some gentle, more reasonable, less apt to throw into their comments phrases like "horrible people," though no less full of pain.
The blog's proclaimed purpose is thus: "We are an unlikely group of former members of Living Faith Fellowship recounting our experiences, pains and victories. Some left on good terms but still deal with the pain. Others left regretfully with tears of frustration hot on their faces and still deal with the pain. This blog is meant to shield others from the heartache, help in healing the countless wounded and perhaps provide a roadmap out for people who are still abused and hurting." Yet, in reading, there is a mass disregard for the "help with healing." There are many many recountings of personal experiences, and angry retorts, and high-emotion opinions. There is no one exhorting anyone to "love one another" and "love your enemy." There is little living out of "love is patient, kind—not jealous, bragging or arrogant, not acting unbecomingly nor seeking its own, not provoked, not taking into account wrong suffered…" and especially "not rejoicing in unrighteousness, but rejoicing in truth…"
It is obvious that these people have been hurt. I do not deny that. We cannot control what is done to us, only our response.
This blog is running wild. More people are being hurt by nursing their own pain… and the rift between those who have left and those who stayed is widening. We should want to strive for reconciliation! Not disunity!

I am not perfect.
I am fully aware that any judgement I pass,
I am passing upon myself.

We need to be founded on the Word of God. Don't dish out what's been dished to you! Work to restore one another, not enable one another to take into account wrongs suffered, acting unbecomingly in doing so. Such proclamations of the sins of others, even unnamed in the comments, is a sort of rejoicing in their unrighteousness! And in allowing this to continue on the blog, wallowing together in the muck of pain and bitterness, is a rejoicing in their own unrighteousness.
The blog could have been established as a shining spiritual victory over death and pain. As it is, it may take years to undo the further damage done. The blog could have been as Jesus turning the other cheek, the Amish families' forgiveness or their daughters' murders… as returning good with evil, "setting hot coals on their heads" (for, from the hurting's perspective, the church and those in it are the "enemy" to love… again, generalizing… take with grain of salt).

I am not absolving the church for whatever may or may have happened to create this response…
I am not absolving those who left for this response just because they are in pain.
--> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> -->

I am not writing to pass judgement on anyone.
I am writing to pass judgement on everyone. Especially upon myself.

Reading this blog stabbed me. Not just with pain for the people hurting. Not just with pain for the church… or the Church, universal. It stabbed me with conviction. Personal and deep.
I am the pain-giver so often talked about in that blog.
I am the pain-dweller, who sits and rails.
I give in to my emotions and let sin run rampant, abounding with justifications.
I am both.
I am all.
I am a sinful human being.

But, coming back out of myself, I can shout out:
Awake! Awake, O Zion!
Clothe yourself in your strength! Christ, who is your strength!
Clothe yourself in beautiful garments! Christ, who is your righteousness!
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
o="" church="" the="" redeemed="" and="" blessed="" of="" god="">
Shake yourself from the dust, rise up,
O captives,
Loose yourself from the chains about your neck,
O captive Zion!
Awake! Arise! And Love!
Live, Love! And be FREE!
>
--> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> -->

We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against the forces of darkness...
Stand firm. Cling to the Hope that you say you have, for He is faithful to keep His promises. He will go before you.

O death where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?

Another lost friend

2006-10-24T10:27:00.001-07:00

To the Dread Pirate Roberts,
I find it ironic that you took the Dread Pirate Roberts as your name as I left LFF at the time Princess Bride was still in the theaters. I left some close friends in Pullman one in particular was Lanni Mackenzie we both went to WSU in ’83. Lanni and I belonged to and worked for the same church in Tacoma in the early 80s. I am just wondering if you could perhaps tell me if you know her and if you could get in touch with her and give her my contact information.
I would appreciate any information.
Thank you,
Gail Ryder
Email: gryder@riadastaffing.com

Note: posted with permission, DPR!!!

Another lost friend

2006-10-24T10:27:00.000-07:00

Service to God or School

2006-10-23T18:37:00.000-07:00

Hi. I came across your blog some time ago and have found it interesting. I haven't read everything, but I've read a lot.

I did want to add a comment to the blog. Actually, I'm hesitant about posting this, but I haven't noticed anyone else mentioning this.

Many people were very involved at LFF, sometimes putting 20 or even more hours per week into service there. Many of those people were students at WSU or U. of I. I remember pastors claiming that the amount of time people were putting in at LFF did not take away from their studies, and I remember Pastor Karl or Pastor Sherri giving an example of a girl who was failing most of her classes, but after she was helped at LFF, her gpa rose to a 3.8. They never named the girl, and I personally didn't know anyone there for whom that was the case.

I've wondered how many people did sacrifice study time and perhaps had lower grades as a result of getting too involved at LFF? Was that the case for anyone? I know of at least a couple of people who came to WSU with high hopes of, after getting their bachelor's degree, going on to medical school or to grad school to work towards a Ph.D. They got involved at LFF and before too long abandoned those dreams and settled for just the bachelor's degree.

These days getting graduate degrees is no longer just for people who are brilliant or rich. Many fairly average people pursue advanced degrees. A lot of grad programs offer assistantships to a good number of students they admit, and these assistantships usually cover tuition as well as providing a stipend (which would take care of the cost of grad school).

It seemed not very many people at LFF went on to grad school, at least compared to other WSU and U. of I. students. I know, there were many exceptions, and I could name some myself. But most LFFers I met considered their education complete after finishing their bachelor's degree and also taking classes offered at LFF as part of the bible college. I know Pastors Karl and Sherri got advanced degrees, and some of the other pastors there got master's degrees bestowed on them by LFFMTC. (I was there until right before the senior Bardens left when there were still several sets of pastors.) But were people who came there as college students not encouraged to pursue further education? What was the deal with that? I realize I don't have all of the information concerning that, but I did wonder what the truth about that was.

The Emperor's New Clothes

2006-10-19T18:29:00.000-07:00

A story about Living Faith Fellowship:

"The Two Swindlers" -played by Pride and Conceit
"The Emperor" -played by LFF Senior Pastors
"The Old Minister"-played by the Hearts of the Believers
"The Officials" -played by LFF Ministries
"The Cavaliers" -played by LFF Associate Pastors
"The Chamberlains" -played by Personal Ushers
"All The People In The Street" -played by All of Us
"The Small Child" -played by the Holy Spirit
"The Father" -played by The Father

Only one comment:
Look at what the Emperor does after the truth is told.

The Emperor's New Clothes
Source: Hans Christian Andersen

Many years ago there lived an emperor who loved beautiful new clothes so much that he spent all his money on being finely dressed. His only interest was in going to the theater or in riding about in his carriage where he could show off his new clothes. He had a different costume for every hour of the day. Indeed, where it was said of other kings that they were at court, it could only be said of him that he was in his dressing room!
One day two swindlers came to the emperor's city. They said that they were weavers, claiming that they knew how to make the finest cloth imaginable. Not only were the colors and the patterns extraordinarily beautiful, but in addition, this material had the amazing property that it was to be invisible to anyone who was incompetent or stupid.

"It would be wonderful to have clothes made from that cloth," thought the emperor. "Then I would know which of my men are unfit for their positions, and I'd also be able to tell clever people from stupid ones." So he immediately gave the two swindlers a great sum of money to weave their cloth for him.

They set up their looms and pretended to go to work, although there was nothing at all on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the purest gold, all of which they hid away, continuing to work on the empty looms, often late into the night.

"I would really like to know how they are coming with the cloth!" thought the emperor, but he was a bit uneasy when he recalled that anyone who was unfit for his position or stupid would not be able to see the material. Of course, he himself had nothing to fear, but still he decided to send someone else to see how the work was progressing.

"I'll send my honest old minister to the weavers," thought the emperor. He's the best one to see how the material is coming. He is very sensible, and no one is more worthy of his position than he.

So the good old minister went into the hall where the two swindlers sat working at their empty looms. "Goodness!" thought the old minister, opening his eyes wide. "I cannot see a thing!" But he did not say so.

The two swindlers invited him to step closer, asking him if it wasn't a beautiful design and if the colors weren't magnificent. They pointed to the empty loom, and the poor old minister opened his eyes wider and wider. He still could see nothing, for nothing was there. "Gracious" he thought. "Is it possible that I am stupid? I have never thought so. Am I unfit for my position? No one must know this. No, it will never do for me to say that I was unable to see the material."

"You aren't saying anything!" said one of the weavers.

"Oh, it is magnificent! The very best!" said the old minister, peering through his glasses. "This pattern and these colors! Yes, I'll tell the emperor that I am very satisfied with it!"

"That makes us happy!" said the two weavers, and they called the colors and the unusual pattern by name. The old minister listened closely so that he would be able say the same things when he reported back to the emperor, and that is exactly what he did.

The swindlers now asked for more money, more silk, and more gold, all of which they hid away. Then they continued to weave away as before on the empty looms.

The emperor sent other officials as well to observe the weavers' progress. They too were startled when they saw nothing, and they too reported back to him how wonderful the material was, advising him to have it made into clothes that he could wear in a grand procession. The entire city was alive in praise of the cloth. "Magnifique! Nysseligt! Excellent!" they said, in all languages. The emperor awarded the swindlers with medals of honor, bestowing on each of them the title Lord Weaver.

The swindlers stayed up the entire night before the procession was to take place, burning more than sixteen candles. Everyone could see that they were in a great rush to finish the emperor's new clothes. They pretended to take the material from the looms. They cut in the air with large scissors. They sewed with needles but without any thread. Finally they announced, "Behold! The clothes are finished!"

The emperor came to them with his most distinguished cavaliers. The two swindlers raised their arms as though they were holding something and said, "Just look at these trousers! Here is the jacket! This is the cloak!" and so forth. "They are as light as spider webs! You might think that you didn't have a thing on, but that is the good thing about them."

"Yes," said the cavaliers, but they couldn't see a thing, for nothing was there.

"Would his imperial majesty, if it please his grace, kindly remove his clothes." said the swindlers. "Then we will fit you with the new ones, here in front of the large mirror."

The emperor took off all his clothes, and the swindlers pretended to dress him, piece by piece, with the new ones that were to be fitted. They took hold of his waist and pretended to tie something about him. It was the train. Then the emperor turned and looked into the mirror.

"Goodness, they suit you well! What a wonderful fit!" they all said. "What a pattern! What colors! Such luxurious clothes!"

"The canopy to be carried above your majesty awaits outside," said the grandmaster of ceremonies.

"Yes, I am ready!" said the emperor. "Don't they fit well?" He turned once again toward the mirror, because it had to appear as though he were admiring himself in all his glory.

The chamberlains who were to carry the train held their hands just above the floor as if they were picking up the train. As they walked they pretended to hold the train high, for they could not let anyone notice that they could see nothing.

The emperor walked beneath the beautiful canopy in the procession, and all the people in the street and in their windows said, "Goodness, the emperor's new clothes are incomparable! What a beautiful train on his jacket. What a perfect fit!" No one wanted it to be noticed that he could see nothing, for then it would be said that he was unfit for his position or that he was stupid. None of the emperor's clothes had ever before received such praise.

"But he doesn't have anything on!" said a small child.

"Good Lord, let us hear the voice of an innocent child!" said the father, and whispered to another what the child had said.

"A small child said that he doesn't have anything on!"

Finally everyone was saying, "He doesn't have anything on!"

The emperor shuddered, for he knew that they were right, but he thought, "The procession must go on!" He carried himself even more proudly, and the chamberlains walked along behind carrying the train that wasn't there.

Note, posted with permission, DPR!!!

Walk in the freedom of who God made you

2006-10-11T13:33:00.000-07:00

You know I actually have turned LFF into some of the major News Stations of
TV asking them to run stories on churches like this. I don't know if
anything will evolve out of this but it would open many peoples eyes to what
is happening. It truly is like a cult which is something I was warned about
when I first moved to Pullman. God will blow this whole thing wide open and
when he does it's gonna be ugly for a lot of people. I can't say that I
feel sorry for any of them because I truly don't. I've had a hard time
forgiving what has happened to me. I was suicidal for a short while and had
to go on medication for it. I have since then bounced back and am moving
forward in freedom but not without many difficulties in forgiveness. I know
many people are mad at God for all that has happened but God is not people.

I have faced many hardships in the past 2 years. My younger brother passed
away in a tragedy and he was 22 years old. My husbands Grandpa passed away
just a few days ago and his grandparents raised him so it was like his dad
passing away. It has been a nightmare to say the least but God is God and
always was and really pulled myself and family through. The things at LFF
seem so small compared to this and I found that I was very selfish and
holding on to things that I should let go. Those people don't care about
you and they never will and when you hold a grudge or bitterness or hate you
are not hurting them at all cause they are horrible people, you only wasting
your time and life keeping those weights on your shoulders. I know this
truly is not what you want to hear and I wouldn't have wanted to hear it at
all 4 years ago either and would have been angry at someone who tried to
tell me these things but those things will eat you up and you will spend the
rest of your life living your life as a victim and never a victor. If that
is one thing my brothers death proved was life is short and you never know
when you are going. God could close his hand on your life today. Don't let
those people continue to run your lives and how you function in everyday
life 1,2 or even 10 years later. I let them run my life for 3 years after I
left. That to me now looking back was 3 years too long. Don't let them
have the satisfaction. They are just stupid sheep being led to the
slaughter. Walk in the freedom of who you are and who God has created you
to be. Your personality does not need to be harnessed, you don't need to
work on your servants heart, you don't need to focus on God more and quit
your job or school so that you can be more involved in church. You can do
whatever you want. BUT!!! do it for yourself!!! DON"T LET THEM WIN!!!

~ If you want to contact me you can at Ra14589@gohighspeed.com. Otherwise
have a great day just doing whatever!!! :)

Craig Elliott

Another response to Eric

2006-10-05T06:22:00.000-07:00

Eric,

I am grieving over some of your comments. I know you and Sarah and I know you both are some of the kindest people I have ever met. I also know the level of involvment you had.

Eric, I was much more involved. Got to the CCL level and also spent many hours personally with Vances, Bardens, etc, in their home, with them on vacations, etc.

I guess the thing that grieves me the most is after you left the things I witnessed and the depth of feeling I had for LFF. I knew God wanted to make some changes but LFF leadership refused to make them. I can tell you that numerous pastors in that church and other leadership tried their best to make those changes happen.

Eric, I grieve at times, at times I am angry, at times I am appalled at what I witnessed and the things I saw others go through. It wasn't what I thought it was at all when it came to certain leadership and how they treated those under them. Yes, there were some good ones but the bad ones who say they love but never truly act on it are still there.

I have numerous friends who suffered the worst who don't even participate in this blog.

All I ask is that you not judge those who write here. As a former leader I witnessed so many of the things people are sharing on here. I wish they weren't true, I cried my guts out when I left because there were times I loved so deeply everyone there.

The church you left was not the church it became, if that makes sense. There are still people I care about there but most of them have moved on. And by that I mean several hundred.

I am blessed at your generous heart. You actually took the bible principles and live them. You would be shocked at how much a church leadership could preach that kindness/generosity and yet live as far from it as possible. Please keep showing Jesus like you do, and pray healing for those of us who are somewhat shaken to the core from what has happened to us and those we love.

--
Note: this was posted under My Truth About Living Faith, but thought it would be good to highlight. DPR!!!

God's Forgiveness vs man's acceptance

2006-09-27T23:25:00.000-07:00

To the person who felt ostracized by the leadership at LFF for prematerial sex I am very sorry what happened to you took place. You confessed your sins to your oversight and in turn they talked with thier oversight and it should have stayed there and not have been spread among your peers. Everyone involved in that leadership chain should be ashamed because they knew what type of personal damage that info could cause.

I dont know you or who your HCL was at the time but I am sure they were not out to destroy you but it seems no sensitivity was given to your situation. Asking you to step down from JCD's is very delicate because if your time as a JCD was like mine, we were all friends. It would be normal for the other JCD's to wonder what happened, ask questions and speculate.

If I had a say in your situation which did not because I was not there I would have brought you in closer after you confessed as you probably had many mixed feelings that good mentoring could have helped. Repentance or true repentance I have discovered is not a quick confession, all is forgiven let just forget about it. For myself I have seen it takes time. I can stop the behavior but the desire to continue is still there and if not ministered, mentored or whatever else you want to call it, that desire festers and the behavior begins again.

To me your confession was not only a cry for forgiveness but also help and it seems that more focus was placed on your sin than your continued walk with Christ. The fact you confessed shows you felt what you did was sin but the outcome that took place was so much different that what could have took place.

God does not hate you and he forgave your sin before it took place. People on the other hand are jus that, people. Like I said if it was up to me the focus after confession should be placed on your continued relationship with Jesus to bring you closer where you could have grown from the experience.

I feel for you because like you I had many close friends at LFF and I am sure many are still there. The difference is I live in another city as an exLFFer and dont see any current church members who may or may not be whispering behind my back or yours. When I was there we had a HCL who left the church but still lived in Pullman and I remember at a members meeting being told why he had to leave, what he did etc and to keep my distance. When I saw him at Fantastic Sams to get a hair cut I had to speak to him to see how he was. I remember I told my HCL about talking with the exLFFer and they were concerned that I was ok and I thought it very strange. It was like he was a disease that would spread on me if I talked with him, nonsense.

I too find myself from time to time longing for the good old days with all my old friends but those days are gone. I refuse to beleive that my best days where over 10 years ago as life is what you make of it and it can and will get better or not.

It is nice to belong to something that we see as bigger than ourselves as it can give us purpose and drive. In the end a church is an organization with thier own rules and regulations that are not always fairley administered.

The God I know is not waiting to punish me or you with a big bat. Leaving LFF is not a sin but a choice. To stay at LFF and be a part of LFF is a choice to live life the LFF way. I just could not do that. We were taught the wheel theory if you remember how we are at the center and each spoke was a part of our life and how God should be at the center and each spoke a reflection of him. How easy it is to put LFF at the center and have it involved in every part of our life. It took me a while to believe it but people that go to other churches are saved and living a very happy life with God.

You had prematerial sex and confessed your sin. Dont confuse Gods forgiveness with mans acceptence. The prematerial thing may have excluded you from inner working of LFF and being a JCD but it never took you away from recieving Gods love and forgiveness.

Do whatever you have to do to get closer to GOD. It sound to me that your anger at LFF is preventing you from doing that. Right or wrong anger is anger and will eat you up in the end. I have seen happen more times than I care to have seen. If you are wary about new churches and talking with a Pastor about what has happened to you maybe a secular counselor can help. They wont judge you and will see things from a much different point of view.

LFF is just a church that consumed many of our lives. Take responsibility for what you did, no more no less, and get help to let the rest go

Editor's note: this was posted way down the blog, we wanted to make sure everyone had a chance to read it.
DPR!!!

What do we do about the war?

2006-09-26T12:31:00.000-07:00

I know that this blog is about LFF and those of us who left it. Sorry if this seems a little off topic. But, when I went to LFF I was a very liberal democrat (Jerry Brown Democrat) but I was convinced that I was in error (the unwritten truth was "you couldn't be a Christian and be a Democrat".) Well,(17 years later) I wrote in my notebook and asked Jesus if he would have been a Republican. Guess what, I got a resounding NO! But, he wouldn't have been a democrat or any other party.

I am embarassed to say that I went to the State Republican Convention as a Pat Robertson delegate. (That really opens up conversations!) What were we thinking. The man is totally crazy! But I lay it down to the Cultural Hegemony of our little LFF (and evangelical Christian) world view.

I have just read an article my pastor sent to me about what our president is planning for Iran, I just can't stand still! I have to do what I can to end this insanity! I am going to join protests on October 5th to call for a regime change. This war on Terror is an unwinnable war. The war on Iraq was a total failure, and in my opinion, moved by the pride of a man who thought he heard from God. I believe we need to pray for Bush. We need to pray that God would soften his heart and help him to see the folly of continuing in the way that he is.

I also hope that some of you can find it in your heart to spread the word about the protests. I hope that all of us can look in the mirror and not feel ashamed. Yes, I am a child of the 60's. But that doesn't negate the truth of pacifism. Our nation was mostly pacifist until World War II! It is not focusing on the differences between all people that will bring us together. It is seeing that we really are all one. God's love is big enough to turn this world around. But it will take us to get invovled to make it happen!

May it happen in our lifetime!
with love and peace to you all,
John Brower
congueroseattle@hotmail.com
(BTW, conguero is spanish for conga player, but maybe against the war is good too!)

Editor's note: posted with permission

If you can not say anything constuctive....

2006-09-20T08:16:00.000-07:00

This is making me mad. Everyone needs to go read the statement about the purpose of this blog. It is for those who were deeply affected by LFF, most in a not so positive way. It absolutely is not for those of you who try to belittle us and our very real pains and scars. We have never needed to, nor will we continue to try and justify or explain our very real turmoil and pain to you. If you are content with LFF now or your experiance, then please shut up. For some of us, this is our only way of dealing with the pain that happened. We left your church and all it contains. We do not need you to follow us and insult or harrass us any longer. Let us try to deal with our lives as best we are able. And if someone feels the need to say that expressing my story was me being a "whiner" or a "weiner" then have the stones to tell me to my face. If you dare, you can ask me for my contact info.

Gene Spaulding

Spiritual Abuse

2006-09-18T13:16:00.000-07:00

Spiritual abuse is a real phenomena. I've listed the 5 Common Characteristics below.

Please see this link for more information: http://www.watchman.org/profile/abusepro.htm

Spiritual Abuse
by David Henke

Founding Date: Spiritual abuse is as old as false religion itself. While the practice is old, the term "spiritual abuse" may have been coined first by Jeff VanVonderen.

Organizational Structure: Can occur under virtually any organizational structure, but "top down" hierarchical structures are especially well suited to systemic spiritual abuse.

DEFINED
Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.

COMMON CHARACTERISTICS
#1) Authoritarian
The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers.

This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadship is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that.

#2) Image Conscious
The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism.

Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by "worldly" people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and proceedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny.

#3) Suppresses Criticism
Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised. The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts. This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God.

#4) Perfectionistic
A most natural assumption is that a person does not get something for nothing. Apart from the express declarations of salvation by grace through faith God has given in the scriptures, it would be natural to think that one must earn salvation, or at least work to keep it. Thus, in abusive religions all blessings come through performance of spiritual requirements. Failure is strongly condemned so there is only one alternative, perfection. So long as he thinks he is succeeding in his observation of the rules, the follower typically exhibits pride, elitism, and arrogance. However, when reality and failure eventually set in, the result is the person experiences spiritual burnout, or even shipwreck of his faith. Those who fail in their efforts are labeled as apostates, weak, or some other such term so that they can be discarded by the system.

#5) Unbalanced
Abusive religions must distinguish themselves from all other religions so they can claim to be distinctive and therefore special to God. This is usually done by majoring on minor issues such as prophecy, carrying biblical law to extremes, or using strange methods of biblical interpretation. The imbalanced spiritual hobby-horse thus produced represents unique knowledge or practices which seem to validate the group's claim to special status with God.

My Truth About Living Faith Fellowship

2006-09-11T18:12:00.000-07:00

Well hello there! I stumbled across your blog a several months ago and found myself very disturbed by what I was reading. As an ex-LFF'er myself, I left LFF with a very different perspective than the tone of your blog. I wrote out the following, but never sent it. Anyway, after much ruminations, I thought I would pass it along to you and see what you think. I don't think it's ready for your blog's audience, but I'm curious if you get similar e-mails? Anyway, here goes…
I ran into Liz Keefer at NW College, where my wife is a professor and had spoken in Chapel to the 700+ students and faculty that attend. In fact, what I wanted to communicate is discussed in the message my wife spoke. You can listen to it here - http://eagle.northwestu.edu/chapel_mp3/20060130.mp3. Anyway, it was a joy to run into Liz (as I find it is when I run into anybody from my time at LFF). We had a good little talk about LFF and she turned me on to this blog. I was, of course, curious about it as I have mostly positive memories of LFF. I haven't read all of it but what I have read kind of makes me seethe a little bit - mostly about the posts that people are putting up. I sure am sorry that so many people feel so hurt and abused by the leadership of the church. To be fair, though, speaking with Liz confirmed what I guessed at but had no way of knowing at the time, that the kids at LFF, who through no choice of their own, were subjected to a very harsh and strict environment. It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to know that not all children will thrive in that type of environment. I am grieved over the PCS kids that I knew from my time at LFF who now I hear have rejected the faith. I pray and petition God to help them and heal them and the rest of what I'm writing has nothing to do with them. So here it is - I really think that a good healthy dose of personal responsibility ought to go along with what most of the people posting to this sight have written. My goodness, we chose our path! We chose to put ourselves and keep ourselves there and perpetuated many of the attitudes and actions that seem to have hurt so many.

My story is simple enough. I got saved at Heartbeat Retreat - and I still PRAISE Jesus for that day and the incredible ministry team at LFF. I did the whole LFF thing for 4 years through JCD's, CAT, etc., etc. etc.. I declare I'm the Christian I am today because of the investment and love that leadership poured into me. The incredible marriage I enjoy is bedded in the principles we were taught in Mirror and Pre-marriage counseling. To this day, I continue in the spiritual disciplines I learned at LFF. I thank God that Pastor Sherri poured into me the vitalness of intimacy with Jesus. To this day I read my bible through every year. I still journal and I hear the voice of the Spirit speaking to me. The servants heart that was instilled in me has not died, but has developed and continues to bless my congregation that I'm in now. Oh, and that whole LFF tithing teaching…ya, I still do that to. Not all to 'the local storehouse' but I would be happy to tell you about the several world vision sponsor children we have, or the list of missionaries we personally support. And to remove any doubt that I've gone from LFF to some other form of LFF you can check out my churches web site at www.canyoncreekonline.com. Believe me, it's nothing like.

It's been over 10 years since I attended LFF, and I've been a committed, serving member of 3 other churches since then…I'm not 'brain washed'. I'm in love with Jesus! I guess I really believed that we can live a sold out Christian life. I knew that the leadership was keeping a file on me and all my juicy dirt, maybe you've read it? I don't really care! I knew what I was in and I knew what was going on…I think you'd have to have your eyes shut tight not to have seen that. Goodness.

Anyway, after graduation from WSU, I was moving on with my life and had a happy parting from the church. I think back to my life at LFF and compare that to what I'm reading on this blog, and my heart grieves for the people who weren't willing to make choices that would have made their time at LFF a better experience, and in fact a better church. I knew I was a little different from most of my peers, but reading this blog confirms that in my mind. I never quite totally 'fit the mold'.
1. I think that Sarah and I are the only couple that got married at LFF who
Wasn't 'arranged' by leadership (I actually met her and fell in love with her outside of LFF!)
2. Sarah was barely an LFF'er (does 9 months at the church count…I think not).
3. And (OMG) we had people in our wedding party who were not LFF'ers
4. I don't remember for sure - but I think we even got a certain wording in the standard LFF wedding liturgy changed to be more accommodating to our families.

I think our wedding really displays what I want to say. I read in this blog that many felt there was a serious problem with conformity and guilt and what not. Well, there was a great deal of conformity…but was it required? I always found that when I was real with my leadership they always came around and supported me in my godly choices. In fact, I never felt like I was expected to do any particular thing…encouraged, certainly, but never demanded. For example, I remember being new to things and wanting my oversight to tell me what I should do…but I was always told to hear from God first and then let's talk. So that's what I did. Is this not a common experience? Yes, there was pressure to do certain things, but I never felt like I was black listed when I chose to pursue other routes…I don't know, maybe that's some new file system they've created - "THE BLACK SHEEP FILE"??? (I'm laughing out loud at my own sic joke). Anyway, I suppose most of us chose to cave into the pressure, rather than really live out who we are and to be truly open and honest. I love the many posts that have much to say about how, post LFF, they feel like they can really be who they are. It's funny…why couldn't they do that at LFF??? Ya, there was a lot of pressure to conform, I still remember being a little sad when I would see some of my friends cave in to the pressure and cut their long hair off if they were a guy or start wearing too much makeup if they were women. Maybe I never had to deal with the whole conformity thing too much since I already 'looked the part'. But certainly, my actions and my sin where known…yet I still never felt like I was on the outs with anybody. I just lived who I was and was truthful and real with my oversight. I mean check this out…I was 'Confirmed?' in CAT 4 at the end of the year a few weeks before I left…with the leaderships full knowledge I was leaving the church. I say this only to reinforce my feeling that even when they knew I was leaving, I was not snubbed but rather 'blessed' by confirmation. "

I think the reality of most of our lives is that WE are the idolaters. We worship the approval of men more than the approval of God. Talk about idols…isn't that what most of us were approaching…idolizing the Vances or the Bardens or the other Pastors? I really think that most of my peers were afraid to try and be who they really were for some fear of upsetting the pastors. That surely is a theme in the posts I've read here. And maybe they did get on some black list…so what! Jesus certainly was on the black list for his time. Big friggin deal…he still changed the world within the confines of his place. I could go on about the life of Paul the Apostle and John the Baptist and Elijah and Jeremiah and and and...
There was a reason I never became a full fledged member (well, and as a single guy, there was that other issue…you can read about it in my file). I was fully aware of the pressures that walked the halls of LFF when I went there…but I never felt like I wasn't loved for who I was or for not making that next step from provisional member to full member. Maybe I got lucky in my oversight. Truthfully, I will say there were those over me who I knew were just going through the motions of 'investing' in me - but I saw it for what it was and I only pressed into those who I found to be genuine. I don't know a church in the USA who doesn't have fakers in it. Those I really poured my heart out to were the ones who were real and I always felt a genuine return of love.

For all the talk about how the heart of what was taught being the most important thing at the church, I think that it is the heart of the teaching that has been lost on many of the stories I've read on this site. I used to think that if only the incredible love for Jesus that the people at LFF possessed, and their sincere desire to serve and minister to people could be infused into the thousands of other lack luster churches across our land…what a different church we would see today. When I started to hear of the families who were moving on and away from Pullman shortly after P. Phil took the helm, my heart rejoiced! I thought, now surely there will be some communities of faith who will be truly blessed to have former LFF members involved and serving in their communities - and I hope there are. How sad I am now to read and hear that among these families there have been divorces, people have fallen away from the faith and then this blog spot where everyone can dump their ill feelings for the whole world to read. I do think there is a process we all must go through after leaving LFF…it was, for good or ill, and incredible place and I think not to find it elsewhere. Because, from my experience at LFF, I still follow the heart of the teaching…if not all of the form of the teaching. I found Jesus as the bedrock of my life and the strength of my existence - and it is because of the incredible investment made by my home care leaders, by my pastors and by the many other people who encouraged me and blessed me along the way.

I just recently read a book by Erwin McMantus called "the Barbarian Way." This book speaks directly to what I am saying. Following Christ is about following Christ…not the limited menu options available by trying to please a few key people. And here maybe my whole argument breaks down, but I really believe that LFF is a place that people could follow Jesus in the specific calling and in all the uniqueness of who they are. You might say that certain choices would limit your ability to minister at LFF. Sure, if you didn't go to crew or whatever, you would be disqualified for formal ministry through the church…but why is it that we sought those positions and coveted them so? I used to think that the pinnacle of success in ministry would be being a Home Care Leader. But on reflection and after many years of following Jesus, I find that success in ministry is way broader than that. It is my experience and belief that LFF was a place where your ministry passions can be pursued…if we truly gave up trying to fit in or please people or climb some ladder of status. Well, there it is.
Last thoughts - Here are some random thoughts I've had in writing this letter (which has turned into a surprisingly long thing) that didn't seem to fit in anywhere else.

About anonymity - Some of my best friends are Pastors. My wife teaches at a Bible College. I think that pastors are taught in seminary 101 not to open or read anonymous letters. I think this whole anonymous business is rubbish, excepting when you have legitimate reasons to protect someone else. I think that it can do more harm than good. Yes people are more able to open up…but to what end? Are we really helping ourselves by telling everyone about our dirty laundry? What if I'm the perpetrator of the pain? How could I possibly know who this person is and seek reconciliation?

'truthaboutlivingfatih' - Hmmm...pretty punishing name. I suppose many feel they've earned right to use it - to do their own shake down on the church. It reminds me of the TV news story that broke when I was there…The Cult Church in Pullman. I personally liked the way they interviewed Pastor Karl - in the dark and asking menacing questions. Soooo, that was pretty obvious we hadn't had much media experience. Wowzers. I certainly had a very different and very positive experience, contrary to the majority of posts I've read on this site. Truth is a pretty brutal word that many on this site have accused the leadership of abusing. Might you also be doing the same? I certainly came away with a completely different 'truth about living faith'. Could I suggest an name change to 'LifeafterLFF' or something a little less gauntlet like????

My hope - My hope for everyone who has ever been a part of, is currently a part of, or ever will be associated with LFF is simply this: "Summing it all up, friends, I'd say you'll do best by filling your minds and meditating on things true, noble, reputable, authentic, compelling, gracious - the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; things to praise, not things to curse." Phil. 4:8 I've found in my Christian walk that what matters most in how we live is loving God first, and then loving people - whether through pain and suffering or through joyous exultation. Dear friends, let us love one another. I suspect if my words are ever repeated to some, they will cause outrage and pain ("you're just blaming the victim!"). My intent is not blame, but to examine what drove us to be 'victims' as so many have accused. Then, at the end of the day, my desire would be healing and reconciliation. I cannot presume to see things from others perspective, but my heart goes out. I remain totally and eternally thankful for the love and rich investment made in my life by Pastor Karl, Pastor Sherri, Pastor Phil, Pastor Kerri and the host of other leadership who gave of themselves for me. Best regards,Eric L. Drivdahl

Lost Friends

2006-09-05T11:41:00.000-07:00

Fifteen years ago, I attended my Freshman year at the University of Idaho. My roommate in the dorms was my best friend since Junior High, Cindy. We both attended CCF and gradually became more involved in LFF. Two older college students and members of the church befriended us and were so welcoming and nice (I now realize they were likely assigned to us). Over the next two and a half years, we attended church there together sporadically.

Sometime during our third year at Moscow, I talked Cindy into joining Going for the Gold with me. It sounded innocent enough and I thought we'd enjoy doing it together. Well, when I found out that I'd be assigned someone who I'd be required to meet with one-on-one frequently, I was terrified. I backed out, but Cindy continued on with the process.

It didn't take long until she started changing in subtle ways, and drifted away from me and our other roommate. Unfortunately, she overheard me make a negative comment to our roommate about how rarely we saw her anymore and that our relationships seemed strained. Something to the effect of "Nice knowing ya, Cindy." It wasn't long after that that she moved out (in the middle of the semester). I really have never spoken with her since. I have sent her an occasional letter, or Christmas card and I get a polite, if brief, reply, or her Christmas form letter. Nothing more. I have missed her terribly over the past dozen years. I cannot believe it's been that long. I still choke up thinking about the loss.

Anyway, I found this blog recently, and it is very fascinating to me. I was never deeply involved with LFF, but over time realized there was something "off" about some of the things I saw. Especially after Cindy seemed to cut herself off from her friends and become so entrenched in LFF, I more and more recognized it as a cult of some sort.

When I visited their website, some time ago, Cindy was still a teacher at the LFF school. The other day, her name was no longer listed as a member of the faculty. In reading many of the posts on your Blogg, it sounds as if many people have left the church and I don't know how to find out what happened to her.

I just had to let out my feelings and was hoping to find out if she had moved on. I would love a response at lorettapox@hotmail.com

God bless you in your efforts to make a difference in the lives of those affected by this
organization.

(Editors Note, I got her permission to post her email)

Shredding Catechism

2006-09-04T12:02:00.000-07:00

A couple of days ago I disposed of my Cathechism II notebook from 1988. As a recent convert to Orthodox Christianity, (see www.oca.org) I had loaned my notebook to my Priest, so that he could evaluate the doctrine of baptism that I had been taught, to aid in deciding if I should be baptised yet again. Nearly a year had passed since I took it to him, and it was returned with the sweet fragrance of incense and beeswax that permeates all his books, many of which he had loaned me during my catechesis. I had forgotten all about the notebook, and suddenly, there it was. A millstone had returned, and what should I do with it?I didn't want to continue to store it. I don't need it for reference, or because I need to be able to spread "the truth according to Karl Barden". I didn't want to send it too the landfill, that offends my environmental sensibilities. The binder is still in good shape, it was the contents that needed to be dealt with.So, I got the shredder, put on some nice calming sacred music, and sorted out pages to recyle (the textpart), and pages to shred. I shredded all the personal details that I was compelled to share on paper, and all the red ink encouragements, and all the stickers, and all the S++'s. I wondered what my cat. counselors are doing now. Are they still there, theThompsons and the Waites? My ex and I were counselors as well, where are our "sheep" now? I can't even remember who they were, just that I was working hard to keep up with everything. We had two kids and one on the way, I was working part time and dealing with acomplicated pregnancy, house hunting and getting ready to move. So, I got to grade papers and think of something to say to each and every essay answer, and a few neat comments or cute pictures to make it interesting. After all, my work as a counselor was going to be evaluated, just like I was evaluating all those papers.

I felt the grief and sadness that comes over me when I contemplate how much a part of the LFF machine I was,how willing, how faithful and "solid", how neatly I bought into the party line, and spouted the scriptures and doctrines when our choices were questioned by caring family members. I grieve for the lives of those that I influenced to buy into the system.When we left in 1996, it was as members in good standing. It took years for me to see how wrongthings were.

As I began to understand the inherent abusiveness of LFF, I reflected on a hard lesson thatI had learned from parenting: "You can't give what you don't have." Or, in other words, no matter how balanced and pretty the teaching, if the teachers aren't living it, it is the reality that is passed on,not the doctrine. Our family had followed the example set before us, with disastrous results. (Of course,we might have had disastrous results anyway, IF we had met and married outside of LFF) We had learned that:
Helpmeet = Enabler
Leader = Dictator
Appearances = What matters
Mental or physical illness = Spiritual problem
Children with problems = Parental laziness
Divorce = Ultimate nightmare of shame and loneliness

These ideas had kept us together. Seeing how false these assumptions were, and not knowing how to handle it, helped to complete the demolition of a wobbling marriage.

Enough for now, Cathechism II has been dealt with in it's paper manifestation in my life. The past is past, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are at work in my life to transform me more and more into the image of Christ. I am in recovery from LFF, it hast aken time, and it will take time. My hope is in the Lord, not in a funny cult in Pullman.
Peace in Christ,Helen-Xenia

PS - Does anyone have any good ideas for disposing ofa size XL JCD support family T-shirt?

the Blogs Impact?

2006-08-18T15:14:00.000-07:00

This Blog Is Having A Positive Impact. Has anyone noticed that the pictures and text related to the Karl and Sherri Barden have been removed from LFF's website? In fact, I did a quick check through the whole site and could find no mention of them and no links to the new "church" in Port Ludlow. A number of people have noted here that the Vances have been monitoring this blog. If you (Phil and Kari) -- or any other LFF leaders -- are reading this comment, I must commend you. You have taken a small but important step toward separating yourselves and your congregation from a very unhealthy past by removing the website material about the Bardens. I encourage you (the current LFF leadership) to take more courageous steps in the same direction: Dissolve the heirarchy that seeks to invade and control even the most intimate details of your attendees' lives. Trust that God will do the work of transformation in each precious individual that no human structure can ever hope to achieve. Open your leadership to true accountability by adopting a congregational structure in which the whole community of faith is made aware of all details of the operations and finances of Living Faith -- and can participate fully in the decision-making process at every level. Trust the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, as expressed in the gathering of believers, to move the congregation in directions that are truly God-honoring and faithful to the life and ministry of Jesus. Be courageous in persevering along this portion of the path -- even if it means that the ties of this congregation to the Barden/Vance family are ultimately called into question. There is a strong perception in the Pullman community and throughout the broader networks with which LFF is connected that LFF exists -- and has always existed -- largely to fund this particular family and its close associates. True congregational accountability may mean that you must be open to the possibility that a fresh start for LFF means doing everything possible to changing this perception -- including the departure of current leadership, or at the very least an opening of the books so that the congregation and the surrounding community can learn "where the money went" over the years. Do not be afraid. God will honor such courageous attempts at repentance.Loose yourselves from the questionable standard of tithing which causes the leadership and the congregation to appear to be (or to be) in the service of money rather than the service of the Kingdom. Trust God to provide the resources needed to achieve the Kingdom results that God seeks in your congregation and the Pullman area.End the enslavement of your people to a church schedule (Saturday work days, endless meetings of various types, etc.) that keeps them in bondage to self-doubt, insecurity and self-focus. Trust Jesus to be present in his people as they become salt and light in their everyday worlds. When their time is consumed by church events, pastoral control is at a maximum and the effective ministry of the people in their daily lives is at a minimum. Reach out to all of the people who have been truly hurt and abused by leadership practices over the years which produced the fruits of bitterness, shame and suffering. Love your flock enough -- both former and current attendees -- to humble yourselves and ask for their forgiveness. This blog contains ample material with which to start as to the types of behaviors for which forgiveness is needed. Involve the Bardens themselves in the task. At the very least, write a general letter from the Bardens, the Vances and other current paid staff to as many former attendees as you can possibly find. Tell them that you regret both the sins of commission and omission. Humble yourselves in this manner and God will lift you up. It is important for the healing of thousands of people whom you once professed to love. Do it for them. Do it for Christ. Do it for his Kingdom. Be strong and of good courage. You can do this. It will take time and perseverence, but you can move beyond a past that binds the congregation to a future of freedom as servants of God's Kingdom in Pullman and beyond. 8/18/2006 2:15 PM

Criticism vs. Rebellious Spirit

2006-08-18T12:29:00.000-07:00

This was sent to us via email. We thought that it might provide a good discussion. We had so much drilled into us about "not touching the Lord's Annointed" and having a "Critical Spirit" or a "Rebellious Spirit". If you read some of the other books (eg. Twisted Scriptures) you start to realize that these are key phrases used to control. Does God give us discerning of spirits? If so, how do we know when we are being discerning, or when we have a critical spirit?
DPR!!!

From "The New Mystics" by John Crowder:"It is important not to adopt a rebellious spirit, and to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood. Yes religion is a foul thing. But 'religious' people are often just wounded Christians seeking identity and comfort in the wrong places. To criticize the old guard is often a sign that we are still operating out of rejection, and somehow needing their affirmation rather than the Lord's. Truly mature Christians, who have overcome insecurity, will see people beyond the veil of their religious bondage and empathize with the hurts that landed them there."

New avitar

2006-07-26T21:38:00.000-07:00

It is interesting that the web people at LFF decided to change the photo that we used as the avitar for Innocence Destroyed. It is a little remeniscent of how we felt about the plastic faces the greeeters put on to greet everyone at the door. Thank you for the laugh!
ARRGH!!! DPR Lives!!!

Pearl of Great Price

2006-07-26T21:37:00.000-07:00

A hurt or a wrong was described to me by a Pastor using the story of the Pearl of Great price, he interpreted the story this way - A clam gets a piece of sand or some other irritant inside it's shell it has no way of getting rid of that piece of sand. Instead the clam produces a mucus that covers that piece of sand to make it slippery as time goes by the coatings of mucus keep covering the sharp edges of that irritant until eventually it is smooth and becomes a beautiful pearl. This process can take many years and the pearl never leaves the clam until we open it up. This is your hurt or irritant it will always be a part of you it could be physical or mental abuse or any other wrong done to you. Each time we feel that hurt we need to go to God and release it. As we do God's love comes and covers that hurt slowly lessing that pain over time. A life time of going to him for his grace, love and covering creates that beautiful Pearl of our life and when we reach that great gate that is what we will present to him. Our pearl, Our Life created by him to be beautiful even in our pain. Realize that he is there for you no matter what. You are his "Pearl of Great Price".

2006-07-22T09:25:00.000-07:00

Hello -

I found your blog yesterday and spent a good portion of the day and evening reading it. I too was a victim of LFF. I was there from 1995 - 1997. The Worship Center was just being completed. I remember the first evening I arrived and how welcoming everyone was. I had just relocated to Pullman to work on some coursework prior to graduate school and I didn't know anyone. It was so very welcoming.
I have to say in some ways I lucked out and was not fully sucked into the the church because of my work schedule that included both Saturday and Sunday. When I first arrived I was put on the shepard path and into JCD and I was in a cool home fellowship group with Sally and Tim Mildren. While going through the GG class, I switched to a sheep type. I was changed into a non-cool group.
My friend that had introduced me to LFF had a falling out with Sherri and then more with everyone else after she met a man in Spokane when the CCF went ice skating and they fell in love.
I mostly wanted to say thank you for your site and your bravery and for being open and honest about LFF. And I will continue to hope that the friends I made there that were still their when I left have also "seen the light" and moved on. I think of them often.

The Old is New

2006-06-28T12:20:00.000-07:00

OK, we went through all of the old mail and deleted it. We posted everything that looked like it hadn't been posted. If you wrote something that you really wanted on the blog, please send it to us again. We will be glad to post it. If you have been in touch with other people who may have stopped visiting the blog, let them know that it is active again.
Thanks and blessings! DPR! (arrgh!)

2006-06-27T16:46:00.000-07:00

Misc. Musings -
As the Administrator points out - the previous and current leadership are following the same suit - no change, no responsibility. My theory on the whole thing is that they CAN'T change. What I mean is that to admit their fault or responsibility in any of these tragic stories, will mean that they are indeed guilty and their pride just could not handle the possibility they are guilty in all or even one.

No, what they would do is review every case, research it, find the details, investigate, interview, interpret and then look into the past of the "complainer" and find it was all a result of all of us "not taking responsibility for our own choices" or the "struggles we were having with sin" or "we were volitional" thus their responsibility is absolved...or another out is just shift the blame - it was their parent's fault, the sister's fault, etc. Therefore, no need to take responsibility - it wasn't their fault and even if they did do something that hurt someone - it was because we interpreted it wrongly, therefore absolving their guilt once again - it was us. They absolutely believe that system to the core and that's why they are clinging to it desperately. I don't ever expect a change, sadly.

In order to continue on, they simply can not face the reality or it would destroy the whole premise on which their fragile world is built. It's the age-old LFF cycle - any questions, any pain, any hurt means that there is something wrong with all of us and we should repent for feeling those things and then take responsibility that we chose to stay and be wounded.

It's a whole veil of deception that I believe they must continue to cling to in order to feel confident in what they are continuing to do. In fact, I would venture to guess that because of the length and strength of this belief on their part, that they don't really know what reality is anymore. What they believe to be true is the only reality they know. Therefore, our healing can not depend on their response, change, compassion, etc. We have to find it outside of that structure entirely - in God, in the Word and in each other.

So, in moving forward, I read a research report this week about how writing about traumatic situations and events helps the person move on and is being used by many doctors to help people heal from events ranging from war to abuse to events like we have gone through. In fact there is a summary of that topic in Jan 2006 Better Homes Magazine too. In the book, Purpose Driven Life, Rick Warren suggests that you write a letter you will never send. Spell out all the details, all the names, the pain, the feelings, etc. and then destroy it. That helped me tremendously - even if my thoughts or feelings didn't seem rational, I put them down and listed specifics - mind you it was a very long letter, but it was good for me! This blog site is a therapeutic tool for many. As you begin to formulate your thoughts and experiences in words, it helps you sort them out and move on from them. It takes part of the power of those memories away in a sense. It doesn't erase the things that happen or the emotions tied to those events, but it will help you begin to make sense of what you've been through and help you to put them to rest.

Thank you for your help and for the blogspot. May we all find the healing we're looking for. Bless you!

LFF Leadership - Move On!

2006-06-27T15:00:00.000-07:00

TO THE LEADERSHIP OF LFF - MOVE ON ALREADY!!

I was just enjoying the fact that we did exactly what we wanted on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day and didn't have to spend the whole night listening to people who love to hear themselves talk! Assuming they have the corner on "God's vision" for the year. No, we simply enjoyed our friends and our family and then went to bed!

We just returned from a trip to visit our families, including a stop in Pullman. It was amazing to me the calls you get - the "we really would like to see you and talk to you". WHY? Wasn't 15-20 years of you talking enough? What more could you say? There is nothing else I would like to hear from any of you other than, "please forgive me". But I do not hold my breath on that one. Not a single one of them tried to contact us in the last 4-5 years, why the urgency to interrupt our family time once again for you? I don't think so!

It amazes me at how (pardon if this is offensive) retarded socially those who have been at LFF are...me included, but time is helping that area! In normal life, guess what, people move on. Friends, neighbors, etc. come and go - they make new friends, they get a life. Why do they feel the need to continue to try to "talk to us" after over years and years? I moved many times as a kid. There are some close friends, but I didn't try to hunt down the kid who I had trouble with in 2nd grade to "talk". Bottom line - to those of you from LFF who read this site (Kari included - we know you're there!) - GET A LIFE!!

Can you move on already? There is not one additional word I would like to hear from any of the leadership - current or past. NOT ONE! I am not interested in your "yada, yada" on how much better everything is or your list of improvements, accomplishments or prayer requests. I'm sure there is some current HCL or JCD you can lean on for support - this shoulder and heart are not available to you!
And to the good hearted people we saw that mean well - bless you! Your down to earth, accepting ways are what a real Christian looks like. YOU should be the pastors! To the rest of you - oops - so sorry we didn't return your calls! Have a nice life!

Field Guide to Evangelicals

2006-06-27T14:34:00.000-07:00

I have just found a book that made me laugh so hard! It is called A FieldGuide to Evangelicals & Their Habitat by Joel Kilpatrick. You can learnwhat Evangalicals believe, how to identify one in the field, How to see themin their natural habitat, how to decorate like an evangelical....The funnything is that you could change the word "Evangelical" and put in "LFFer" andit wouldn't be too far off.Isn't that funny? I remember how we used to feel about those"Evangelicals"! We were so much better than them. We were the ones on firefor God. But if you look at this book, you will see that, sadly, weweren't too much different from them at all. I highly suggest you read thisbook for a good laugh. I can't put it down. They also have a great website www.larknews.comEnjoy, John Brower

A call to pray for leadership

2006-06-27T14:13:00.000-07:00

I am from Pennsylvania and never attended this church that you speak of. I was trying to get the lyrics ,music, and history behind the song and pulled up this website. How sad. My Dad is a pastor and I grew up as a PK. Instead of constantly bashing the family, why not pray for them? Bring your prayers and concerns to Jesus. He understands and will listen. Also, the enemy works strong in a pastor's family, because he doesn't want God's message to get out. Pray for everyone involved in ministry! Pray that they will be able to stand against the enemy. We are in a spiritual battle and we need to come together in prayer!Lititz, PA

Thank God for the blog

2006-06-27T13:44:00.000-07:00

Thank God for what you are doing. I have several relatives who have been involved with Living Faith Fellowship for decades. Their lives have been twisted, their hearts broken and – worse yet – they have learned how to use deceptive, manipulative techniques to influence those around them for their own gain. Instead of following the way of the Jesus of the Gospels, these relatives have been taught to follow the Bardens. Even those among them who have broken away find themselves emotionally damaged and deeply confused.

Many of my relatives still cling to the desire to please the LFF hierarchy, in spite of all that I (and other caring relatives) have done to persuade these dear family members of the lack of biblical grounding for Karl and Sherri’s “teachings”, the lack of credible academic credentials of the pastoral leadership, the clear violation of psychological boundaries and many other abuses of their “leadership” positions. I have learned a great deal about this cult-like church from former members, and although the common “word on the street” is that things are better under the leadership of Karl and Sherri’s daughter & son-in-law, I cannot see it. The current “pastors” have no more training, expertise, biblical grounding or credibility than the “founding pastors”. Phil and Kari are enmeshed with Karl and Sherri. As far as I can tell, the sick, disgusting and abusive practices begun by the founders have been institutionalized throughout LFF’s “ministries” over time. It is a system and Phil and Kari are deeply entangled within it. The entire enterprise needs to be exposed to the Light.

It is commonly known that before persons who have suffered physical, psychological and/or sexual at the hands of family members can find healing, they first must be willing to tell the “family secret”. That is what you are doing by creating and maintaining this blog. You are allowing the victims of abuse to “tell” the “family secrets”. Please do not shy away from the task until all is exposed. There is much that needs to be discussed about several of the most disturbing aspects of LFF’s history and practice.

If I may – I would like to suggest a few additional topics which may have not been fully explored -- as yet -- on your site. Among the issues that might be beneficial to discuss, I would name: the annual lavishing of gifts upon the Bardens by the various “home groups”; the lack of accountability structures by which members could have/can exercise checks and balances upon the LFF leadership; the destination of the millions of dollars that has flowed through LFF (I’ve seen discussions of the excessive “tithing” required, but not enough about where all the money went – I have heard that the Bardens and their associates have invested a lot of it in real estate); and the exaltation of Sherri as “God’s Woman”.

I applaud your courage. What you are doing is a service to Christ and his Church.

God Bless You for Your Efforts!

An Anonymous Observer

The Blog Lives On!

2006-06-27T12:43:00.000-07:00

I am the Dread Pirate Roberts (for you Princess Bride fans!). The healing that this blog is bringing to all of us is too important to stop, so the posts will continue. You will see some posts that are dated a while ago, just so we can make it through the backlog. Keep reading and commenting. The truth is a good thing, and it is setting us free.
Sincerely,
DPR! (aka, your editors)

Editor's Note

2006-06-23T19:10:00.000-07:00

Concerned bloggers have inquired asking why emails have not been posted to the site recently. And some have speculated that the blog had been "shut down" somehow. However the real reason has to do with the fact that the administrator found the process just too painful to continue and has made the following statement:

"Thank you for your concern. As we went on publishing this blog, re-living these memories became often too painful..."

Ultimately, all of us must let go our grip of the past (whether painful, pleasant, or both) in order to embrace what God is doing presently and to embrace what He intends to do in our lives next. (And yes, sometimes we need to vent our pain and anger before moving onward. And to that end much said on this site has been therapeutic.)

And beyond the expression of pain many have felt the need to see the Truth expose untruths. We just cannot be a part of those who continue to compliment the "emperor" on his "new clothes". We ask, "Hey, am I the only one who sees that he doesn't have any clothes on???" The answer is, "No brother and sister, there are many who see the same thing."

Until we meet again bloggers let's remember that the Truth is a Person and not a thing and that He is not negotiable. "He is the same yesterday, today and forever."

"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the Truth and the Truth will make you free."

Blessings upon all as you travel the freedom road of Jesus Christ.

Broken Wing

2006-01-16T09:10:00.001-08:00

So, following are some ramblings of things I have worked out, through, in and still struggle with at times, but wanted to share my heart on dreams and hope it encourages you!

Have you ever heard the song by Martina McBride, Broken Wing? Now you may not like country music, but I love the chorus on this song where it says, "with a broken wing, she carries her dreams...man you ought to see her fly." The song talks about a girl with a dream and how the man in her life is holding her back by telling her that dream is crazy, she'll never do it, etc. That's exactly the role that the pastors of LFF have played for years...breaking wings of young, energetic, youthful dreamers who are at their prime season in life to fly!

For all of you who visit this site, read it or are "sneaking on to it" against your pastor's will, I have a prayer - that you will be able to carry your dreams and fly. Some times I read the blog and I cry. It breaks my heart - more often than not. Sometimes I read it and get ticked. I feel so ripped off. I get angry when I think of what was supposed to be the most special moments in our lives wrecked by the things you talk about - our wedding day, our first pregnancy, the infant years of our children, the things they missed out on, my family, etc., etc. Sometimes I read it and get so sad - almost depressed when I think of the things that we KNEW God had put on our hearts, only to have them shot down and told "that will never happen" flat out by pastors or worse yet, to have our wings clipped by pastors who were threatened and tried to keep us small. And some times I am just floored - I can't believe I stayed so long and put up with so much crap. I'm not a pushover and I guarantee, no one will ever treat me that way again. But in some way, all of us had our wings broken by the experiences and the suffocation at LFF.

I recall one instance where I was speaking with a couple of the five fold pastors and they were floored by what I had said. At the time there seemed to be quite a rash of people who were being treated for depression - why do I know this?...oh, under the guise of "prayer request" all sorts of gossip went on. (One absurdity - in one case, a pastor actually said "oh she's depressed because she doesn't make her bed in the morning") Anyway, I plainly mentioned that I believe absolutely that there are so many people who were depressed because they had to abandon their dreams in God in order stay at LFF. They could not believe it and were not happy. You can imagine this was not a popular word and trust me it was before the "mass exodus" - at least two years before the leadership team fell apart. I remember the look in a certain pastor's eyes and the fury that rose up. I got chewed out up one side and down the other and told I was unspiritual...yada, yada, you know the routine.

But I sit here today and am absolutely convinced that God created each one of us exactly the way we are. Did you ever think about it? HE designed what have been labeled as our weaknesses and used as clubs like they were some big flaw in our being. Hello - God made us that way! It wasn't some mistake like "0h darn, I didn't mean to give him that personality, or that characteristic". NO - God made us exactly the way we are in order to use us for a purpose that only we can uniquely fill. I shouldn't have to be like any other person. That is not God's purpose for me! I am me with my own unique expression, my own unique personality and I deserve to live an abundant life of joy - injured wing and all - singing if I want, worshipping however I want and doing the things that I know bring me closer to God - not what you think is best for me! I know that some of the things God stirred in your hearts years (maybe lifetimes ago) are buried somewhere and I believe that just like a seed, He will bring those things back to life if you want. Maybe not in the grandios ways we may have once imagined, or maybe so...but FOR SURE in the way HE intended. It's not too late. Don't give up. My prayer this year has been "God, you put this dream in my heart, now I am placing it back in YOUR hands - do with it what you will." He has begun to work out some of the most painful parts in my heart...some of the deepest scars...were in the dreams that I vulnerably shared that were thrown down, squished and spat on by "shepherds". It's been years since we left and I have just been able to begin to open this part of me. It's slow and I'm not forcing anything, but it's a good thing...painful and brings up a million emotions, but one baby step at at time.

I pray for all of you - that you will "carry your dreams and fly"! Remember - "His eye is on the sparrow and I know He watches you (and me!)". You are so important to Him, exactly the way you are. The comparisons you were taught or had shoved down your throat were an insult to your maker. You are you. Exactly who God intended to create and use. Take up your dreams and Fly! He will indeed carry you!

Bless you!

Memories of New Years Eve

2006-01-03T13:41:00.000-08:00

I always think about our parties at LFF on New Year's. I remember how fun they used to be at the Barden's house and then when we moved them into the first building on Kimball. I remember how fun it was to hang out with everyone and not worry about working. We could talk, we could play games, we could eat. Of course I got kind of tired of the same food every year. I made stuffed mushrooms which were so good, but you could only eat one or two. You can almost feel your arteries hardening as you eat them!

I also have fond memories of waiting to hear what the Spirit was going to say for the coming year. It always got me excited for the next year. Now, however, as I think back to the prophecies (many of which I typed out to post on the board), it seems that they basically said the same thing. "You are my chosen, and I am going to bring a great revival to the world starting in Pullman!" Well, they say you know a prophet by the accuracy of their prophecy.... As the Jews have said "we know we are your chosen, but can't you chose someone else sometimes?" Does it all seem like the prophecies were just another tool to manipulate us into staying at LFF? I long for the Spirit to speak to me as clearly as I thought it did in those days, but to hear Spirit's true words. Do any of you still journal? Do any of you still hear God's voice like we thought we did at LFF?

Editor's Note

2005-12-08T17:04:00.000-08:00

Our sincerest apologies...After more carefully reading the content of the previous post and taking into consideration the comments and e-mails we have received about it, we have decided to remove it. We feel the commenters were correct in their cautioning of the use of some names in relation to certain things. Thank you for your input and we apologize for this lapse in good judgment on our part. Oh, and look, we just freely admitted we made a mistake and apologized for it. Too bad those who caused all this pain still appear to have no intention to follow suit. It is predictably sad and again highlights the fact there are still major problems at LFF. What change??? The former leadership can see no wrong and thus will not come clean and the current leadership is doing exactly the same. How tragic.

What happened to Love? (email)

2005-11-24T19:56:00.000-08:00

As I have read bits and pieces of the blog and consider it's purpose - to bring healing through understanding and support. To let you all know that it wasn't just you, you're not crazy or ungodly for the things you feel, I am left with so many questions, regrets and emotions that quite honestly I wonder if I will ever be rid of them. It makes me sad. In many ways I feel ripped off.

After recounting the many pains, experiences and situations of our years at LFF, we are assured regularly through those still there who know us that things are changing - they're different - they've learned. I question - "how could they have learned? they do not listen", "how can they be different - they still do not love or care or show compassion, they still look for the fault, not the good, the pure, the lovely." What exactly has changed? Aside from a few externals, I am not certain. And honestly, I don't care. I won't listen to the pleas, the criticisms, the explanations any more. Don't bother me with more words.

Case in point:

I recently had someone close in a very serious life or death situation in the hospital - too young to die. What do you suppose trickles down from LFF and some of it's current leadership but judgment? It's because of their upbringing and that of the family that they are in the hospital and in this situation. There's an explanation as to it's demonic origin and the wrong ways they lived and thus, voila! - tragedy. No concern, no care, no prayer, just an explanation. Do I care? What happened to love? What happened to God's power to do a miracle - which He did, by the way!

This happens all the time in so many areas. How many people will it take to recall the times that all that was looked for in them was the "wrong, the bad, the errors" - Our oldest child was having one of those sessions last night - recalling memories from PCS. What happened to looking for the good, pure, lovely?

How many accusations about participating in this blog, questioning everything from our relationship with God to our very salvation will be handed along? What happened to grace and love and compassion? What happened to humility?

How many "concerns" for our spirituality will be passed on as Christ-like with no more than a condescending voice and look - saying they are more spiritual than us? What happened to meekness and understanding?

How many times will we hear "we have left the Holy Spirit" because we do not practice exactly as you say we should? What happened to God? Where does He fit in to all of this?

Of course we are all not perfect in our faith or walk, but the honesty and truth that many here have expressed in the REALITY of where they are at I believe is exactly what God is looking for. REALITY has it's own sense of peace. No more pretending, no more shows, no more hypocrisy, no more crap. Just me - exactly where I am - in front of God - who is the ONLY ONE who can make me something different from here! It feels good, I recommend it. REALITY that is.

The Cult Test

2005-11-21T11:35:00.000-08:00

The C word has come up on this blog. It is not easy to accept, even for those who have left, it involves painful soul searching and honesty. These simple ten rules may help you determine if you have been in, or are in a cult.

1. The Pastor is always right.
The Pastor, his church, and his teachings are always right, and above criticism, and beyond reproach.

2. You are always wrong.
The individual members of the cult are told that they are inherently small, weak, stupid, ignorant, and sinful, and are in no way qualified to judge the Pastor or his church. Should you disagree with the leader or his cult about anything, see Cult Rule Number One.

3. No Exit.
There is simply no proper or honorable way to leave the cult. Period. To leave is to fail, to die, to be defeated by evil. To leave is to invite divine retribution.

4. No Graduates.
No one ever learns as much as the Pastor knows; no one ever rises to the level of the Pastor's wisdom, so no one ever finishes his or her training, and nobody ever graduates.

5. Cult-speak.
The cult has its own language. The cult invents new terminology or euphemisms for many things. The cult may also redefine many common words to mean something quite different. Cult-speak is also called "bombastic redefinition of the familiar", or "loading the language".

6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
The cult has standard answers for almost everything, and members are expected to parrot those answers. Willfulness or independence or skeptical thinking is seen as bad. Members accept the leader's reality as their own. Ask a candid question, get a canned answer.

7. Irrationality.
The beliefs of the cult are irrational, illogical, or superstitious, and fly in the face of evidence to the contrary.

8. Suspension of disbelief.
The cult member is supposed to take on a childish naïveté, and simply believe whatever he is told, no matter how unlikely, unrealistic, irrational, illogical, or outrageous it may be. And he does.

9. Denigration of competing groups, or organizations.
This is common, and hardly needs any explanation.

10. Personal attacks on critics.
Anyone who criticizes the Pastor, the cult or its dogma is attacked on a personal level.

Rather than honestly and intelligently debating with critics, using facts and logic, the cult will resort to low personal attacks on the critic, using name-calling, slander, condescending put-downs, libelous accusations, personal slurs, accusations of bad motives, and casting aspersions on the critic's intelligence and sanity --
"You are just an atheist, a liar, a dummy, a sinner, a drunkard, stupid, crazy, only in it for the money, etc... And you have bad taste in music and an ugly hair-cut, too."

Adapted from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html.

Changed (via email)

2005-11-14T19:43:00.000-08:00

I sit here and feel emotions I though I had successfully sealed away. I sat at my computer and tears poured down my face as the pain and hurt and rage came roaring back. I do not know what to say really. I have debated even writing this. I am sure that there are many of you who felt the same emotions, thought the same thoughts when you contemplated writing your story down. A friend sent me the link and I am not so sure I should thank her. I have wrestled with telling my experience, wondering if it would serve any purpose. I have decided to do so. There are many of you who will relate, and some of you who will not, to which I am grateful you have been spared.

Many of you will figure out who I am as you read. The rest do not need to know me. To those who know, maybe this will help understand some things.

I am a product of LFF. I was not born into the church, but my family made up a large part of PCS in its early days. I was infused with LFF's dogma, legalism and servitude. My first day of PCS was the first year in the "barn". I was able to survive 8 years at PCS before I was given a choice. Come back as a freshman and submit to unbending rules and restrictions due to some infraction the year before, or go to a public school. I leaped at the chance to go school with out a dress code and for sports and girls ect. I though this will be great. Was I in for a shock. I realized that in the education department, I was above my pears do to PCS's system. But socially, what a reject. I had no idea how to interact with kids my age or girls. I was forced to continue to come to church. I hated Wednesday and Sundays. I knew I would be unable to talk to any of my former friends. I was ostracized, because I was now a bad influence and rebellious. This was my first taste of how LFF can turn on its "own" if you dare go against them. I went a bit wild to say the least. I ended up moving away and fell into a world I almost did not come out of alive. Fast forward 4 years.

I just turned 18, I have been on my own for almost 2 years. Dropped out of school to work to feed myself. Depend on no one, answer to no one, I am my own master. I have a horrible drinking and drug problem. I have been raped, beaten, robbed, hospitalized, and arrested. I know I won't live to see 19 if things keep going as they are. I am horrible alone.

I don't know what will happen if I ask to come back home, but I have to try. I make the call. I am told I can come back, but I know what my family believes and how they live. Can I submit to the rules and lifestyle? I say I don't know. I think about it for a few weeks. I have hit rock bottom, at this point I will do almost anything to escape. I say I can, I need to do something different. Life has not worked out so well. My dad and I have a long talk when I arrive. He needs to know what they have to face in the next few weeks as my body starts to purge itself. Also do a lot of talking about God and salvation. I become saved for probably the first time in my life. I remember "conversions" in PCS as a kid, but those were mostly because it was expected, along with bible memory and demerits.

I think I had finally found a relationship with God. It is the only thing that helps me survive the next year. I come back to LFF. I am not welcomed back with open arms as is the prodigal son, though I am called that many, many times. I have very strict guidelines that I have to meet to be allowed to come back. First, I go no ware in church with out my dad. Not even to the bathroom. I can talk to no one I knew or have any unattended conversations. I am watched constantly, and must prove myself to the leadership. This is how LFF welcomes back their own. I must beg to be able to attend GG's. I luck out and get a awesome guide. He is most definitely God sent , and is able to help me survive this ordeal. I go back to high school. I still have no friends until on guy steps forward and befriends me. We soon become inseparable, we understand each other, and best of all, he did not know me before I came back. I think he is my best friend. ( I come to suspect later that I had been assigned to him)

I survive this "probation", not with out some troubles along the way. I am physically healthy and struggling spiritually. I 'fall" to temptation time and time again. I step out of line even the slightest and I am nailed. There is no give for me, no leeway. This sets up my future at LFF.
Somehow I survive and seem to prove myself enough to be deemed "safe". . Fast forward 2 years.

I graduate high school and go to work. Decide not to go to college. Move out on my own. I follow all the steps, gg's, Cat's, Mirror's. ect. I do everything I think I am supposed to to develop into a "leader". I work on the new building every free moment,I meet a girl, who I fall deeply in love with. I make a couple of really good friends who are similar in thoughts and interests . The 4 of us become great friends. I join JCD's. Along the way, somehow, I develop a relationship with Jesus that I had always longed for bet never though possible. I can survive everything because I found something to help me. Life seems to be good.

Soon things begin to unravel for me. I almost lose my job due to the amount of time I spend helping on work crews, doing what is 'expected." Also, this is almost the only way I get to spend time with my girlfriend that is approved. Because young people are not to be trusted alone together on dates. Ever. No exceptions.

My relationship with God has deteriorated into works and legalism. I am struggling and do not know why. I have lost that relationship i used to have. I have myriad questions and concerns. I have done all the steps you are supposed to, and still there are no "leadership" roles for me. I see people coming in who are here for a very short time before they are "marked" for greatness and leadership roles. They are mentored and favored by leadership. I am starting to feel the bitterness as I struggle to prove myself over, and over again. I I dare voice these concerns.

I absolutely regret doing that. I get told that I am rebellious and no longer have a servants heart. I am strongly encouraged to break up with the girl, until I can get my relationship with God back. Combined with all this, I am now spending increasing amounts of time gone due to my work schedule.This sets the beginning of the end. There are a few memorable things which occur...

The girl and I break up. I am called in to Bardens office two weeks after the breakup with the girl and get told that the relationship will never work. She is a white collar girl, and I am only a blue collar guy. I am told that it will be very difficult for me to make the relationship work. This is peoples lives manipulated. She gets marked for great thinks and I am not good enough for her. I am shocked and horrified by this. I ask my CCL, what is wrong with me? Why am I not good enough. I wonder why whenever I do something wrong the news travels like lightning, yet when something like this happens, or I do something good, the news never gets relayed.

I pour myself in to the "programs" and recover a semblance of my relationship with god. Maybe I do, things seem to be going good. Leadership seems to be taking notice. Along the way the girl and I get back together. She confesses she is still in love with me, and I with her. We take it slow and try to keep leadership involved, just like good little sheep. I become a servant minister to Sherri, and am told what a honor this is. I think this is finally paying off. I am now starting to come into the potential I have been told for years that I have.

Things seem to be great. The girl and I are in the middle of the marriage homework. Work is going good. I am planning on asking her to marry me. Life is ok for me. Little did I know what was on the horizon.

The girl and I are on the last lesson of the homework, I have my proposal all planed and my leadership know all about it and approve. All the sudden the girl is to busy to spend time with me. No reasons, just always busy suddenly. I am confused and in pain and not understanding. Feeling very rejected and in pain. Come home from work out of town a few weeks later and girls want to see me. We get together and I ask what is going on. I feel like I am losing her and not sure why? She breaks up with me. Tells me her leadership agree with her. She says they helped her see that our lives were going two different directions and her relationship with God has suffered while being with me.

I am now very angry and hurt and confused. I feel like I have been blindsided and stabbed in the back. My life had been manipulated like some puppet. I am lost. I try prayer. God does not seem to hear. There is no solace in prayer or spiritual notebooks for me. I feel completely abandoned. By the only girl I have ever loved and trusted, and by God. I go through the motions of survival. I work, I eat, I sleep, I go to church, repeat. In the midst of this I go through a HCG change. I lose my long time HCGL's and get new ones. This means relating my life story and current troubles to virtual strangers.

I manage to survive for a few months on this life. I find works and legalism are not enough for me. I start to question things and I am getting no answers. I get told I am being rebellious again just like when I was a kid and look were that got me. I go to pour out all my troubles to my new HCGL's and try to find some answers. I pour out all my hurt and anger and doubts about losing this relationship with the girl, and about not sensing God anymore. I get told by the female half to "get over it. She is never coming back, now stop feeling sorry for yourself."
I stand up and walk out. I never go back to that home group.

I have fallen into depression. Everything in my life is unraveling. No relationship. No connection with God. Work is going badly. Seeing the girl every Sunday and being ignored is killing me. I start to work 70 and 80 hours a week. I struggle to find God again. Nothing seems to work. A memorable life changing event is going to take place. A man dies who I had been rude to the last time I had spoken to. I attend his memorial service and feel immense grief that the last words I had spoken had been horrible to this man, and I would never get the chance to ask his forgiveness or to let him know that I truly liked him. As I sit there feeling these emotions, Sherri Barden stops by my seat, grabs my arm, looks me in the eyes and tells me that she had wasted her time on me and everyone else had wasted time on me when they could have given to this man, and how he had really loved Jesus and now he was dead and here I still was.

I was absolutely floored. This is the woman to whom I had been a servant minister. This is the woman who had told me a few weeks before that she knew what God intended for my life and that it would be a great thing. This is the woman who I though loved me out of all the Leadership. This is supposed to be someone who is far more spiritual and hears God far more clearly that I She is one of the head pastors. I snapped. I walked out in a rage.

I stop going to church. I can not find God. I am a waste of time. I am alone and confused and full of despair. I change jobs. I spend intense times alone. I loose my friends as they do not know what to say to bring me out of despair. I learn that friends have been warned against spending time with me and I am once again a bad influence. Life at LFF has come full circle for me. I am so incredible lonely I attempt suicide. I fail at that also.

Several months go by. A old friend resurfaces. He and I have been like brother's. I limited my time with him in the past as he was a "heathen" and I was counseled to limit contact to conversion attempts only. He forgives me and we resume the depth of friendship we had previously. I get invited to a program at the church called Hells Gates, Heaven something or another. Most of you remember it. My friend comes to visit me that weekend. We go together. It was a impactful show. He has a lot of questions and I try to answer what I can and my Dad talks with him also.

That next morning my friend is killed in a motorcycle accident. We were to get together that night and watch football. My mom and sister show up and tell me the news that my friend had been killed that afternoon. I am understandably very upset. I take off and find myself back at the church and that show. I set there in tears questioning God. I am told that God has a plan and it was my friends time to go. I ask what kind of God takes a man and leaves behind a young child and wife? Once again Sherri Barden comes to the rescue. Someone had told her that my friend had just died that day and she makes the comment to me that if it was not for me my friend would still be here and his daughter would still have her daddy. I turn my back and walked out.

I figured that if this was God and Christianity then I wanted no part of it. I have not been to a church since then. I am living my life apart from everything I had ever been taught by LFF and I am doing well. I do not claim to be a christian or live like I am one. I have no understanding of how some of you can just forgive that place or the people of it. I am not that way. I have nothing but spite for LFF and its leadership. To this day, Christians have been some of the most dishonest, backstabbing, despicable people I have ever run across.

This is not meant to make me sound like a victim, and I know I made my share of mistakes along the way. However LFF had no call to try and manipulate my life or others as it saw fit to do so. I still face the after effects of my time at LFF. LFF made me dance on their strings for far to long. Do not pray for me, or feel sorry for me. I do not want it or need it. Maybe this will help someone.

LFF Doctrine and My Struggles with Assurance

2005-11-08T12:13:00.000-08:00

via e-mail...

I was depressed after leaving LFF but didn’t know what was going on inside. I spent nearly 8 years of anxious ridden activity there, trying my best to be an obedient follower of Christ under the “covering” of my HCG/CC/Pastoral leaders. After I left it took me years of intense study to undo the skewed teachings and LFF mindsets – though I’m sure some linger. Teachings I knew and believed like the back of my hand as a Member, GG guide, Cat counselor, MTC grad, JCD, Bible study leader and so on. What was the outcome - I discovered the truth of Christ and his work on the Cross as captured by the 5 Solas of the Reformation: salvation by Grace alone, through Christ's work alone, by Faith alone, for God's glory alone as taught by Scripture alone. Yes, I found the Cross.

I could view my years at LFF as wasted and be bitter and such, but I don’t really. I still have fond recollections of people, friends and yes even leadership in most cases – at least as people. I do believe there was a genuineness of faith behind what was done, just a wrong faith that led to wrong actions in a lot of ways. Overall it was not a pleasant time but I had nothing to compare it to, so I thought this is what Christianity was all about. I did suffer a deep seated torment inside most of those years but I chalked most of that up to my sin or lack of faith and pushed through it – thinking things would get better somehow if I only obeyed more, confessed more, prayed more, served more, studied more, was more O.H. & T., etc. Little did I know that torment was mostly based on the logical consequence of believing it was something I did that kept me from being spewed out of Jesus’ mouth and going to hell!

In hindsight I liken those years to the Old Testament Mosaic period when Israel was under the Law. The Law served to demonstrate the exacting requirements of God, unattainable by human effort, and to reveal sin as sin. It was a schoolmaster pointing to the real solution – Christ and His atoning work – the final sacrifice. Similarly LFF’s de facto works righteousness and its effects only made the sweetness of the Gospel message that much more sweeter upon discovery, and therefore I believe in God’s sovereignty He allowed me those 8+ years as a precursor to understanding the truth of salvation by grace alone in a very deep way.

As Paul taught, the Law and its systems were never designed to save, but point to Christ. Woe to those who think they can self-attain righteousness (or some spiritual status) that pleases God and merits his hand of fellowship. It not only is impossible, it displeases God because is totally misses His plan.

Jesus reserved His harshest words for the Pharisees and Paul cursed the Judaizers who taught the Galatians to add the works of the Law in with the Gospel

Similarly we at LFF followed laws, though they were “spiritual” and pietistic in nature – yet laws the same. We paid lip service to God’s grace, but displaced it with spiritual good works. The Cross was a starting point only, not a continuing reality. It was demoted for the higher “truths” and real “maturity”. In fact grace was seen as something that was extended on rare cases, an exception, not the rule. I believe the lion’s share of the pressures and “wrongness” at LFF were tied to this fundamental error, though there were others causes too, divulged elsewhere in this blog.

In my opinion LFF’s perfectionist teachings and practices were a de facto works righteousness and ironically were more akin to Roman Catholic doctrine. During the Reformation even Rome believed in initial Grace for salvation, but taught (and still holds) that upon receipt that grace empowers the believer to do good works, which in turn are meritorious towards salvation. They believe one is saved by works, but not Christ’s alone, you add your own to His. LFF taught you secure your own salvation by being relationally close to Christ, serving him via the Body, and other efforts of heart, mind and body. Which in essence means salvation is not by Christ alone, but something we add to the equation to make it effectual. Therefore both Catholic and LFF doctrines (at least when I was there) are sadly similar in how they intermingle Salvation and Sanctification.

In truth Salvation is a one time, immediate event, that is eternal in its effectiveness and was applied on the condition of faith alone, which itself was a gift of God. It is based on a historical and objective work of God through Christ. His perfect life earned for me a real righteousness I could never earn and his death atoned for my moral debt. He took all my sin and replaced it with His righteousness. That is why the reformers called it an alien or foreign righteousness. I am saved by good works – Christ’s - and those works are no legal fiction. He earned them while on Earth as the sinless man, perfectly obeying the Father, all on my behalf. And the Father accepted them as such – works done by Christ, but accounted to me. This is why Jesus was baptized (amongst other things) – to fulfill all righteousness for His elect.

Sanctification on the other hand is the lifelong process of growing in Christ likeness. It is empowered by God’s grace through the Spirit, and though I do make effort it rests solely on God’s past salvific work and no way contributes to it. God is also behind my sanctification, bringing about his ends in my life by his sovereign hand and does not intend for me to reach perfection in this life in order to make it to heaven – that is already covered by Christ. This does not mean I have a blank check to sin – that is not in keeping with those who are truly saved – we are new creatures who’s lives point in a new direction, though we struggle with indwelling sin daily.

Again, my salvation was by faith alone, but that faith was not alone in that it does bring about good works in keeping with my new creation. However every good work I do merits me nothing in the eyes of God. My works are to be grace motivated, un-coerced, free of manipulation, and yes in need of stimulation by God’s Word – thus the need for preaching - but never something I do to earn/keep my salvation or God’s acceptance.

The message of the Cross is the power and motivator for sanctification and the fruit of the Spirit. Remove it from the very center of Christianity and you drift to something other than Christianity – whether it is moralistic fundamentalism, subjective mysticism or empty liberal theology. The Gospel is for Christians just as much as it is for the lost. It reminds us we are complete sinners saved by grace and our post-conversion life is lived by that same grace in Christ – we have no boasting in ourselves.

I still remember P. Sherri pointing to the Robe of Righteousness worship banner and how the robe was put on the Christian. She took special note to show there were no hands other than Jesus’ doing the placing. She got that right; sadly so many of the other teachings, systems and the everyday practices of LFF militated directly against that Gospel truth. What the right hand gave, the left hand took away.

Though I’ve heard of big changes in LFF since I’ve left (7 years ago) I don’t think they get at the root problems (from what I know). The church needs a reformation. It needs to get back to the Faith once handed down to the saints.

P.S: I wholeheartedly agreed with LFF’s Arminian worldview while there. I imagine they are still against Calvinism (Augustinianism) today. As one who now holds to many tenets of reformation theology and absolutely rejects Arminianism as false I do want to make clear that the LFF characterization of the doctrine of salvation by grace alone was a straw man. What was taught about Calvinism were common misrepresentations that framed this doctrine in such a manor to make it seem obviously wrong. In the end LFF did not reject Calvinism, but a corrupted version of it – I can vouch for that.

Before you handily dismiss what I’ve said I implore you to clearly understand the doctrine and the rebuttals to these common complaints.

Sites I recommend for more info: http://www.solagratia.org/ and http://www.ligonier.org/

I am fully convinced upon careful study in the light of scripture you will see that the message taught by Calvin and Luther (and a host of others) was nothing more than a recapturing of the message of Paul and thus Christ our Lord and Savior. And that message shows the amazing grace of a holy, just and sovereign God who dearly loves his children, chosen in Christ from the beginning of time and secures for them a complete salvation from the wrath to come, all for His glory. It is amazing grace after all and is truly good news – worthy of sharing.

My Story (email)

2005-11-07T16:57:00.000-08:00

After having grown up there for eighteen years, I left LFF about four years ago. It was the summer after my freshman year of college. I needed to leave, but I did not fully understand why at the time. At first, I was happy to be moving and grateful to be away from Pullman. Then, we started attending other churches. I recognized the same songs that we had sung at LFF and the same catch phrases. I began dreading church. I hated going and drug myself out of bed every Sunday morning. I would often cry through the service, or do my best to ignore the sermon. Also, I was starting to realize how horrible LFF had been.

I started feeling abandoned. None of my friends at LFF were still my friends save one. I would cry a lot and would go for long walks by the river. I was so lonely. I did not feel that I was able to make friends at the church we were going to because they were too Charismatic. I liked them, but every time I hung out with them, I was thinking “they are just like LFF.” I realize, now, that I had set up a mental block against them. I was prejudice because they reminded me of LFF.

It did not take long before I stopped sleeping at night and started skipping meals. I read all the time; I could not stop and I could not sleep. Therefore, I read all night long, mostly Lord of the Rings. I was trying to escape the problems in my life. I could handle neither my own pain nor that of my family.

I started yelling at God. “Why did you make me like this? Why did you let this happen to me? How could you! Don’t you care at all? I thought that if I believed You would cushion me against all my problems! I even wished that I could be back at LFF and everything could be normal. Oh, to live in a happy and ignorant bubble again!

Depression is a hole out of which there is no ladder. So many times, I felt that I was so depressed that I was drowning in my own tears. I used to hope for rain so that I could feel that I was not crying alone. Later, at another school, I spent all my time watching TV in my dorm room, and doing cross-stitch. I spent at little time as possible thinking I would take walks and hope that someone would ask me what was wrong. Strange, I know, but I didn’t feel like I could hold it in anymore.

At school, I would go to the youth group and spend the whole time crying because of the memories the songs aroused in me. I don’t think that I was ever able to fully explain to my friends there why I did not hang out with them as much as I could have. Eventually, I would make up excuses to arrive late just so that I would miss the worship time. I hated LFF for what they had made me.

Praise God for His Divine Intervention! Else, I would still be caught in this endless cycle of depression and anxiety! Just before I moved to my new school, I had a long talk with my father about Salvation by Grace and Pre-Destination. We had started going to a new church on the recommendation of another Ex-LFFer. Salvation is a gift from God. Therefore, it is only by God extending his hand toward us that we can be saved. Righteousness is a gift from God to sinners. I have no need for that salvation unless I see my self as a sinner. I am a sinner, a horrible sinner (Isaiah 53:6). Without God’s gift of Salvation, I know that I would not really want to be saved. I would want to go to Heaven. Without God, I would not see my sin.

Romans 2:22-24 “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

I know, so much of this sounds just like LFF, so what is the difference? “Not the Labors of my hands could fulfill thy laws demands” (Rock of Ages). The absence of works is the difference. Despite all that the LFF says, their salvation was on of works. Do you remember being told that you can “earn your place in Heaven?” Romans 8:29-30: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Glorification is a part of God’s gift to us. We did cannot earn it.

How proud of me to think that I had a hand in my own salvation! I have been predestined for Salvation since before the creation of the world. I have been called and been declared righteous.

It is hard to forgive those that have wronged me, especially when it pain like that was caused by LFF. I take comfort in remembering that Jesus understands my pain. My pastor made a comment that the only requirement for us to have been saved was that Jesus had to die. He did not have to suffer on the cross; he could have died peacefully in his bed for us to be saved Instead, he chose to die in extreme pain and humiliation, so that he could identify with human suffering. “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows” Isaiah 53: 4a. CS Lewis has written two books on suffering, which I have had recommended to me (The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed). One was written before he lost his wife and another was written afterward and each looks at pain from a different angle.

I would like you to know that to this day, I still cannot listen to Christian music after four long years I want to pull back from any sort of volunteer church work mentioned. I cannot stand Charismatic Catch Phrases. I take pleasure in drinking beer out of the mug I got from the JCD retreat.

Healing for me has been a long, slow process. I still struggle with depression and anxiety. It helps me to know that God chose me. “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit” (John 15:16). He knew me in my mother’s womb. Everyday I face the pain. Nearly every day, I feel like crying about it. I understand what you mean and the struggles you face about not wanting to go to any church. I lived there for a solid two years. It is completely normal.

It grieves me to think about all of the people whose faith was crushed by LFF. I, too, am praying for you.

Numb Lyrics (email)

2005-11-04T10:40:00.000-08:00

"Numb"

I'm tired of being what you want me to be
Feeling so faithless lost under the surface
Don't know what you're expecting of me
Put under the pressure of walking in your shoes
Every step that I take is another mistake to you

[Chorus]
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I've become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

Can't you see that you're smothering me
Holding too tightly afraid to lose control
Cause everything that you thought I would be
Has fallen apart right in front of you
Every step that I take is another mistake to you
And every second I waste is more than I can take

[Chorus]
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I've become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

And I know
I may end up failing too
But I know
You were just like me with someone disappointed in you

[Chorus]
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I've become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

Controlling Personalities (email)

2005-11-03T20:06:00.000-08:00

Years after leaving LFF I am still processing the following questions:

How it that so many people have been successfully manipulated and
controlled for so many years? What is it about the founding pastors that
gave them the ability to pull this off?

Before I understood that LFF was largely about "control and conformity"
I assumed that it was God who was the source of the amazing power that
they wielded. Only lately have I begun to understand the nature of their
true source.

I highly recommend the following link to learn more. There are a total
of 5 insightful articles on the subject of "Controlling Personalties in
the Church". You will find that most points in the articles are very
descriptive of the dynamics of controlling personalities at LFF both
past and present.

http://dory.typepad.com/wittenberg_gate/2005/05/controlling_per.html

Signs of Spiritual Abuse (email)

2005-11-02T13:35:00.000-08:00

Apotheosis of the leadership -- exalting them to God-like status in and over the group;

Multi-level authority/government hierarchy;

Absolute authority of the leadership;

No real accountability of the leadership to the corporate body;

Hand-picked sub-leaders based on their demonstration of loyalty to the ultimate leader rather than on the basis of their leadership skills, spiritual acumen, and anointing and appointment by God;

Pervasive abuse and misuse of authority in personal dealings with members;

Paranoia and insecurity by the leaders;

Abuse, misuse, and inordinate incidence of "church discipline;"

Personal materialism, covetousness, and self-aggrandizement by the leaders;

Members/and or sub-leaders must either sign a covenant agreement or make a "spiritual covenant," pledging their allegiance and financial support to the leadership and group;

Partitioning of the group into smaller groups that are led by internally "raised up" leaders;

Financial exploitation and enslavement of the members;

Inordinate attention to the public "image" of the ministry;

Doctrinal demeanment and devaluation -- the requisite of espousing and teaching "sound doctrine" is demeaned and devalued;

Theological incompetency by the leadership, especially with respect to the rules of hermeneutics and Bible exegesis employed in the formulation of doctrine, giving license to twisting and adulteration of Scripture in order to provide proof-texts for unorthodox and invented doctrines;

Spiritualism, mysticism, and unproven doctrines;

Abuse and misuse of prophetic giftings;

Devaluation, disallowance, disregard, and displacement of the true Fivefold Ministry within the church;

De facto legalism, or works mentality, and its resulting loss of the "joy of salvation," though "freedom" is forever preached from the pulpit and the church is constantly touted as being a "safe church" by the leadership;

Esotericism -- hidden agendas and requirements revealed to members only as they successfully advance through various stages of "spiritual enlightenment," i.e., unorthodox, unproven indigenous doctrines;

Isolationism -- corporate and individual, especially with respect to exposure to outside ministry sources;

Performance-based approval and promotion system of members predicated on "proven" loyalty to the leadership;

Devaluation, suppression, and non-recognition of members' bona fide personal God-given talents, abilities, gifts, callings, and anointing as a means of subjugation;

Requiring members to perform menial tasks, such as cleaning toilets, setting up chairs, and acting as the leader's personal valet or slave, as a supposed means to humble them and teach them to "obey their leaders;"

Constant indoctrination with a "group" or "family" mentality that impels members to exalt the corporate "life" and goals of the church-group over their personal goals, callings, and objectives;

Members are psychologically traumatized and indoctrinated with numerous improper fears and phobias aimed at keeping them reeling in diffidence and an over-dependence on their leaders and the corporate group;

Corporately, there eventually develops an inordinately high incidence of financial, marital, moral, psychological, mental, emotional, and medical problems;

Lack of true personal spiritual growth and development, especially in terms of genuine faith and experiencing the abounding grace, forgiveness, goodness, blessings, kindness, and agape-love of God;

Members are required to obtain the approval or "witness" of their leader(s) for decisions regarding personal matters;

Frequent "war stories" by leaders regarding individuals or families who left the group and the terrible consequences they suffered as a result;

Frequent preaching from the pulpit regarding staying under the "spiritual covering" of the leadership;

Departing members depart under a cloud of manufactured suspicion, shame, and slander;

Departing members often suffer from various psychological problems and display the classic symptoms associated with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

Sound familiar?

My Thoughts (email)

2005-11-01T10:48:00.000-08:00

I completed my rather long stint at LFF a few years ago. I would have left sooner but we all know what kind of shame falls on the remaining family when their child forsakes the church; not to mention I myself was afraid to leave. There truly were not any choices. I was more like a juvenile fish in a fish farm in the middle of Kansas, no hope of ever reaching any real body of water. I am so ashamed to be associated with Living Faith Fellowship, whenever it comes up in conversation I try to leave, but its not always a choice, you eventually get corned and people ask were you went to school. "You went to the cult school, how was that?" From that point on I am (we are) labeled as one of those crazy Living Faithers. I want so badly to shake off this past of mine but I can not, I grew up there. There are times I ask my self: Who can I fault? Is it my parents? They thought there were doing right, doing just as they were told. It saddens me that they still subscribe to that LFF way of life. I was never able to talk to them about life growing up. Now every shred of even speaking to them about the little things is destroyed. When I try to talk to them about the church they just refuse to even evaluate their situation, they put up the defensive walls with an, "I don't want to hear it!". I don't think I'll ever be able to talk to my parents about life, its just gone...

I do think the blame for this rests on many, and I do know that at the root the blame rests on one man.

I am so tired of all the games, all the masks, all the smoke and mirrors. Don't try to charm me. Don't smile at me and make small talk like we're good friends. My life is torn to pieces because of a few people's egos. They never do truly care about any thing but their own little world. I still have not forgiven; it's hard to when the wrong doings are still going on. Why should I forgive when they continue to deepen and salt my wounds? They need to "get their heads out of the sand."
I have come to the realization that these wounds will never heal. They leave ugly scars and continue to re-open and bleed all over the place. Like the life lasting effects of injuries, each one a direct tie to my early days. One of the ways I have found to relive my pain is to laugh at my past, some of the things I remember are just a big joke now. I write them down some times just for kicks and giggles. I have entitled my collection of short stories "Lets compare scars" here are a few of the shorts for your enjoyment.

Today is brought to you by the word....

As a hush falls over the crowed, as a man slowly shuffles its way up to an over sized blue podium. He slaps his outstretched, ring clad hands on its sides. Much licking and smacking of his lips later, he utters forth a new word, which has never before fallen on human nor animals ears. "Gloryifickjtasticah." (To be heard, glory-if-ick-tastic-ah) The people loudly cheer and clap their hands. The man stands, slowly looking side to side licking and smacking his lips. A pleased look crosses his faced as he thinks "Yesss, once again I have pulled the wool over the entire congregation's eyes" The cheering subsides to a dull roar as the man says,"Say to your neighbor Gloryifickjtasticah, as you are seated" The people blindly follow his direction, every one of them uttering nonsense.

Pappa knows, Pappa knows....

Sitting amongst my Christian school peers, all dressed in polyester, hushed in silence as if there were a dead body on display. Sweating, waiting for the "great privilege" of Pappa's wisdom, that we may be enlightened by the wisest man in the world. Shifting in our chairs, wondering what the opening topic would be, glancing around looking for missing friends. Would it be another room spinning 1 hour and 1\2 hell? Has one of our friends fallen to the world, "turning their backs on us?" Was today's topic, "Council on how to avoid all contact with this fallen friend," followed up by seeming hours of teared and fiery prayers, that they would turn away from the path to fire and brim stone. Would the boys and girls be separated this time, so they could confront one of us with a sick and heinous sin while the other gender prayed for the detained, that we would spiritually ignite and become men or women of god. We were required to conjure up questions that our parents couldn't answer, so pappa could flex his superior, enlightened mind. If we couldn't think of any would we be reamed for throwing away this opportunity to bask in the light of gods representative.

The school staff trolled about, reminding us only of impending doom. "I hope you all have good questions" they would say.

"Lets all give him a warm round of applause." they shouted, as his immense person entered the room, rings flashing rays of light, his cufflinked sleeves swaying slightly, under one arm a large leather day planer was perched. He would walk to the front of the room, eyes squinting behind his gold rimmed glasses. Setting his planner down with a thud, he smacked then slowly licked his lips.

He usually opened his meeting with. "whose got the first question?" or the dreaded "I bet your all wondering why I'm here today." I even remember a, "How many of you know what sex is...... (a hushed silents) ..... Every hand in the room should be raised"

I don't know about you but I feel better when I laugh about things, and there are plenty of things to laugh at in retrospect. I have seen the comments about people trying to heal, try just laughing.
I know I'm going to get the comments "you should forgive them" and "there were positives, talk about those" but you know what? this is me, the real me, this is were I'm at, these are just a few of my hurts, this is one of the ways I deal with things, and I will try my damest to never allow any body or church to have as much control of my life as my family did. I really appreciate this blog, now I am not just another out of sight out of mind.

Know The Truth (email)

2005-10-31T10:44:00.000-08:00

After hearing (Oct, 2005) about leaders at LFF trying to suppress someones contact with those who have left, this hit me.
What could be a corollary to:

"And you shall know the truth,. and the truth will set you free," John 8:32?

What if you don't know the truth? What could that make that person?

Like the young elephant kept and limited by chaining it to a stake, the lack of knowing the truth when it's older and much stronger keeps it not free. At will the mature elephant could break free but doesn't. The same chain or even rope keeps the older powerful creature from being free but the tether does not represent truth. It represents simple control.

Those who don't know the truth are said to be in the dark and in some cases maybe captive.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

I have many deep injuries and painful memories from my experiences at LFF.
But though His grace and time, I'm being healed.
LFF is not the first LFF. There are several books written about such experiences.

I'm not trying to minimize the pain you feel.
I don't know how to fix the broken marriages, recover the years of lost family or the abuses done in the name of God.
I've heard the bitter tears of mothers who lost their dreams.
These two sentences don't even scratch the stories of pain and abuses or offer any justice.
But I do trust that God is the final judge and things will be leveled in the end.

Jesus said: Luke 4:18
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed

Jesus came to do more than just forgive of our sins. His healing the blind or feeding the 5000 speak to something more. Those have little to do with forgiveness. To heal the brokenhearted speaks of restoring the heart. At LFF it was the hearts and motives that were often assaulted by the leadership. Since most every person knows their own faults. It's an easy trap to fall into. I see my faults, they tell me I'm bad, I must be bad. Many were held by such condemnation.

So human heart can be broken or Christ wouldn't have said, He sent me to mend hearts. (again Luke 4:18)
Many of you have broken hearts, you came to LFF with them from how your parents did or didn't treat you or you were born and raised there. Maybe your heart was broken through a failed relationship or any of the other deep confusing blows this world offers tender hearts.

"And you shall know the truth,. and the truth will set you free".
"Above all else, guard your heart...
"He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,"

One of many books that have been helpful to me since leaving LFF has been, Waking the Dead. It speaks to the issues of the heart. It might help you put the LFF experience into perspective, correct some of it's doctrines and give you a vision of healthy fellowship.

The Father cares about you. He cares about your heart.

May your heart be tended by the Father's love, may you be healed in His timing and may His truth set you free.

In His Grace
With love to you,
A fellow sojourner

If you would like to dialog about this, please send email to fellow_sojourner@comcast.net
It will be treated anonymously, tenderly and privately, your heart has been burned enough already.

Thoughts...from the comment box

2005-10-28T00:34:00.000-07:00

For me the simplest terms for the failure of the pastors at LFF is incredible arrogance and willful disregard for fellow humans. I believe the these two things have blinded them to the truth about themselves and what they have done. It has led them down a path where they have mistreated people and been part of a huge deception which involved ungodly relationships and the financial/administrative intergrity of the church leadership.

But, they still can't see it. They still don't get it. They still think they are right. They still think they understand and have answered all the people who have tried so hard, to tell them in so many ways, that these two issues have got to change. They still believe they have more integrity than all the rest of us. Even when we have watched and identified, to them, the lies.

There was/is a horrendous lack of humility about who they are and what capabilities they possess. Both the founding and current pastors (this refers to husband and wife teams) have a deeply ingrained belief that they possess more discernment, more wisdom, more skills and more compassion than the rest of the kingdom of God combined. I am not trying to be sarcastic. This is not an exaggeration about what they have stated about themselves. If you were there, you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, most of us were required to believe it, or at least submit to it (since it was not believable) in order to continue doing what we believed was "living for God".

Most spiritual insight, acute intellect, exceptional giftings or acts of kindness displayed by those beneath them had to be quickly quashed or shut down by their harsh criticism in order to keep people down under the "esteemed" roles of leaders.

Not to say encouragement didn't happen. If you were one of the "chosen" or if you were needed for some special project at hand you might receive some encouragement. Remember, I am talking about specific leaders. There was lots of encouragement among peers and friends. It wasn't a totally cold and hard place or none of us would've stayed.

Those with the courage to challenge the leaders or even ask innocent questions were also berated into submission or "squeezed out" of the fellowhip.

Because of this arrogance they never really submitted to any checks and balances for themselves. There were token balances of power presented to the congregation, but we did not know they were only "token" until much later.

These leaders also believed they "loved the deepest and the best" of anyone in the kingdom. Sadly, it's just not true. They were always amazed by the number of people who were hurt in their wake by their callous treatment inputed to those "under" them. They always answered in such a way to make the follower feel like they had sinned by being hurt. "You did not understand me or my heart or my wisdom" or "this is just how ministry training works."

Even though much has changed on the surface at LFF, and these are good changes, the two core issues haven't. The changes that have happened came more in a sense of acquiescing, "let's make it feel better and keep the people here". If these changes hadn't happened they would have lost the whole church at once, rather than the slow trickle now turning into a steady flow.

The amazing thing to me is that God has allowed them to remain blinded, deceived, or whatever word best describes it. They are sincere in their beliefs about themselves, their intentions and their actions. They really believe that we are a wicked web of disgruntled, back-biting, murmurers who don't have any merit and have turned our backs on them in their greatest time of need.

Incredibly, even in my own conversations with them (in the past year), they believe that "they"(LFF)are the only reason people have "become as good as they are" and that LFF doesn't get the "credit" they deserve for having "made these people who were nothing into something." They reminded me that I was included in the being "nothing" until they got ahold of me.

Well, I wasn't a nothing. I was a precious creation of God. A creation He delighted in. I was skilled, intelligent and great with people before LFF. A fallen creature, to be sure, but not one that lacked existence before my LFF experience. I was a Christian before. For those that got saved there, God could have used any instrument to draw you to Him. Know that LFF wasn't the key to your salvation, but His Spirit drawing you to Him was.

I think it is easier to identify what went wrong or is still wrong. But it is hard to put one answer out there for everyone who is hurting. There are many different types of experiences people had at LFF.

You have the PCS kids who didn't have a choice about growing up there. Their experience is very unique.

You have the parents who regret losing those child-rearing years and even some of the best years of their marriage.

You have those in the various mentoring/leadership programs.

You have those who were called "friends" by leadership and slaved for years to gain acceptance of those leadership "friends".

You have those men who were chosen by specific leaders for twisted soul relationships. These relationships warped even the marriages of those men to the point that their wives never fully owned their husbands in the way God intended.

You have those who were never high class enough to be acknowledged seriously by leadership but were valued for their labor.

There is not one pat answer to each group. I'm sure I don't have a complete list here. Some pain goes much deeper than others. Some can still relate to God, some can't. Some can forgive and just move on. Some can't. Some can leave LFF. Some can't. The problems are easy to see, the answers are not black and white. It does all stem from some disregard for fellow humans on some level.

Many of these people overlap into more than one group. These people served so faithfully, so willingly, so sacrificially, for so many years. They honestly loved each other very deeply. Yet they were made to feel they never quite cut it and still had so much sin and immaturity to get out of.

Many people gave everything. Yet these leaders still genuinely believe they have sacrificed more than anyone else. It's not a contest. I'm not trying to say who deserves what accolades. But for so many people to have poured out their lives and still be made to feel that all of this church mess is their fault and the leaders are innocent..... seems like the Bible holds the shepherds more accountable than the sheep.

I also need to say that all the hurt I may carry does not exempt me from my need for forgiveness and the precious blood of Christ. In the midst of the failure of these leaders, I was still a sinner who needed Jesus everyday. Still do. Not all of my problems stem from LFF.

In all fairness, maybe there is more understanding in the hearts of these leaders about what they have done. Maybe they have taken more responsibility before God. Maybe they see how they have treated those He gave them to care for. If this has happened, there will be evident fruit that follows such an understanding. There will be no question in any of our hearts if this ever happens. But, I can only hope and certainly can't stand around waiting for it.

Regardless, I want to live my life treating others with the dignity and respect they've earned just by being His creation. Beyond that to the greater commission, I want my life to reflect the great love He has for them to draw them to His salvation. I still want to stand before Him and hear Him say "Well Done".

Time Cannot Erase (email)

2005-10-27T00:12:00.000-07:00

My Immortal - Evanesence (song download)

I'm so tired of being here.
Suppressed by all my childish fears.
And if you have to leave,
I wish that you would just leave.
your presence still lingers here,
and it won't leave me alone.

These wounds won't seem to heal,
this pain is just too real,
there's just too much that time cannot erase.

When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears,
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears.
I held your hand through all of these years.
But you still have...
All of me.

You used to captivate me by your resognating light,
Now I'm bound by the life you left behind.
Your face it haunts, my once pleasant dreams
Your voice has chased away all the sanity in me.

These wounds won't seem to heal,
this pain is just too real,
there's just too much that time cannot erase.

When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears,
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears.
I held your hand through all of these years.
But you still have...
All of me.

I tried so hard to tell myself that you're gone.
But though you're still with me,
I've been alone all along.

When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears,
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears.
I held your hand through all of these years.
But you still have...
All of me.

This lyrics to this song say it all for me. Living Faith Felloship has caused me many tears, countless nightmares and persistent depression. I want so bad to forget it all. No matter how hard I try, my mind is plagued with confusion. Why did these things have to happen? Can't it all be erased? Now looking back, I can see how bad it really was. When I left LFF I went straight into another abusive relationship. I continually struggle with issues of self-worth. This site has given me a glimmer of hope, but just a glimmer. If you are one who still believes in God and prayer…please pray for me.

An outside observation (via e-mail)

2005-10-26T16:53:00.000-07:00

I’m not a person who has ever gone to LFF, except for the occasional concert. I heard about this site from a former member who is now involved in another local church, but granted, this person didn’t grow up in Pullman or go to LFF for very many years.

I’m a pastor with curiosity. People who leave our church stop by and visit from time to time, without eggs, which I think is pretty normal…but I digress. I don’t pretend to know the experience you all have been through but judging from the visits and responses, the experience isn’t isolated. Which begs the questions “why” and “how” could things get this out of hand? If you were a pastor of church, what would you have done differently, sincerely? I’m sure these question are addressed somewhere, but I couldn’t navigate to the answer. I could make a wild guess at a few answers, but you know what assuming does. I ask these questions with respect, complete sincerity, and honesty. Love it or hate it, I want to learn from it. If a church has the ability to hurt that many people, I want to know what went wrong in simple terms as to never do the same.

On a side note, there have a been a lot of former LFFers come through, all with the same results: they left pretending like nothing was wrong, but about 6 months or so into going to a new church that wasn’t going to try to make decisions for them, they realized that their minds where like programmed to act, look, and think a certain way, but that “way” wasn’t really who they were. It was a façade. They where shocked to have their eyes opened, and most became very depressed because they questioned who they really where, and if, in fact, their faith was real at all, or if it was just part of the programming. It’s a sad thing to see people go from being ultra secure to ultra insecure in a matter of months, and not being able to do anything about it. …just thoughts from a outsider that’s been told the same story by different people coming from the same place.

As for me, my God is my God, and I’m glad to go to a place called church with people who believe in the same God. My God shapes my thoughts, not my church, and for that, I’m glad.

How do I know? (email)

2005-10-25T09:24:00.001-07:00

I had heard about this blog long before I ever decided to visit. I was kind of afraid to. When I left LFF I tried desperately to get out of Pullman and with no luck. For a while it was hard enough to drive by the church everyday, see people in the grocery store and have them go into outreach mode at light speed, to run into Kari Vance on the stairs as I went to check the mail for work one day, let alone to actually deal with the hurt that was inflicted on me while attending LFF. Visiting this site made me face the reality that I too had been hurt like all these other people and your stories are like my stories and your pain looks and feels a lot like mine. I realized that I could continue to deny that this all existed inside of me and deal with it subconsciously for the rest of my life or I could just have it out right here and now and do the best I could to sort through it and not let them continue to have this hold on me that they have had for so many years. I have chosen the later and the rougher of the two paths but I think that I will be glad in the end.

It has been a long time since I have read my bible, just as long since I have felt comfortable worshiping (which was the one thing that got me through an abusive childhood and gave me so much joy in my life at one time) and a while since I have been to a church. The thought of doing any of those things still make my stomach turn to knots. When I hurt, I write. I refuse to write in a notebook however. While I was thinking about trying to attend another church and how good it might be to make new friends and be able to put the past behind me and move on I began to realize how I was feeling and I put it into the words below in the form of poem or a song. It is written to the Body of Christ as a whole, not just to LFF, from someone hurt by a wolf in sheep's clothing. I hope that in some way just as many of your entries bring healing to me this finds its way into your hearts as well.

How do I know you won't hurt me anymore
How do I know you won't lie to my heart
How do I know I can trust you again
How do I love you through the pain

I gave you years of my life, handed you my heart
My dreams and my plans still no matter how much I gave
It was never good enough for you
So how do I know

Shards of hurt remain in my soul
I can't go a day without your memories
They flood my mind like your abuse once did
Only time can clean up your mess.
But how do I know

You were supposed to hold my hand
Help me up when I fell down
Protect me, guide me and keep me safe
I gave you what you wanted
And now you ask me for it again
Still how I do I know

How do I know you won't hurt me anymore
How do I know you won't lie to my heart
How do I know I can trust you again
How do I love you through the pain

Can You Answer These Questions? (via email)

2005-10-24T10:43:00.000-07:00

Everyone has a story. Everyone has some (or many) painful examples to share. It is obvious how tightly woven together we were, and still are, because EVERYONE knows about this site!

Some simple thoughts, hopefully! First, there is no denying the pain expressed on this site. People are all at different levels dealing with and healing from the pain. God Bless us through it. But I feel the pain (even my own) is secondary to a very important consideration. I can’t tell you how many people - still at LFF or gone -have said, “I pray you are healed from your hurts and you are able to forgive.” Let’s be realistic. Forgiveness and hurt are not the primary issues here.

Integrity and truth are the ultimate issue. I spent years forgiving hurts that were put upon me, whether maliciously or unintentional. I’m sure others forgave me of hurts I inflicted on them. We were there and willing to overlook/forgive these pains (even when we recognized those inflicting them were seriously messed up) because we believed we were serving Jesus, His greater cause and we hoped for a great work to be accomplished at His hand.

IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY HEART FOR HIM WAS EXPLOITED BY LEADERS WHO DID NOT TELL ME THE TRUTH AND USED ME TO ADVANCE THEIR KINGDOM. Even as a member and then as part of the leadership team, I was not told the truth. I have quit beating myself up over “Why did I stay?” “Why did I waste my life there?” “I’m so stupid to have stayed!” Do I regret it, you bet. Do I wish I’d have done differently, uh huh! Do I think I am stupid. NO WAY. If I had known, I would have tried to bring change and then left earlier. In fact that is exactly how I left, just wish it would’ve been sooner. But do I know why I stayed? YES.

I trusted and believed there were checks and balances in place at levels of leadership to keep those aforementioned miscreants from coming into full power with their twisted sense of Christianity. I didn’t know that those at the top were the true masters of deception about how the church was managed and decisions made. There is no other way so many people, educated people, could have bought into this without trusting what they were told. But we didn’t know…. and I won’t carry the weight of guilt and shame for having tried to please Jesus.

The reason we trusted is simple…. Jesus and His Kingdom were used as leverage against us. How could we not believe they (the leaders) were giving all for Him, stewarding His kingdom and tapping into His wisdom? We were certainly working hard to do that ourselves. I still hope to be meeting that definition of Christendom according to the Bible. God, in His mercy, did bless many aspects of LFF but only because people with heart motives for Him gave so freely and willingly on His behalf. I also am convinced God brought to the leadership, both past and present, many opportunities to turn from their ways. I believe God would have blessed LFF mightily if they responded. I even stayed the last few years hoping for that change. Maybe God still would, but I don’t have as much hope for that as I once did.

I think everyone (especially those who remain) need to examine this list of questions. These are important to answer honestly about any leadership you would commit such loyalty to.

1. Do you trust Vances? Why or why not?

2. Do you trust what they say? Why or why not? What is that trust in their word based on?

3. Do you compare what they say to scripture? Why or why not?

4. Do you trust that they live by the same principles they teach? Why or why not?

5. Do you trust their representation of the Bardens? Why or why not?

6. Do you believe it’s ok for Vances or LFF to support the church in Port Ludlow in any way? Why or why not?

7. Do you trust their representation of their own marriage? Why or why not?

8. Do you trust their representation of their children? Why or why not?

9. Do you measure their pastoring against how scripture defines pastors? Why or why not?

10. Do you trust their representation of people who have left LFF? Why or why not?

11. Do you trust their representation of people who are still there? Why or why not?

12. Do you trust their representation on subjects brought up at members meeting? Are you aware of incidents where they did not accurately represent something you were part of, a meeting or an event? Are you aware of times when they sat silent while others shared inaccurately about incidents or events when they should have spoken up?

13. Do you know how decisions are made? Who has what authority to make what decisions? Are there any checks and balances? Why or why not? Do you know this based on their word or a proven and trackable record of decision-making?

14. Who decides how money is spent? Are there any checks and balances in the system? Why or why not? Is what you know just based on their word?

15. How are employees hired, treated and discharged? Who makes these decisions?

16. Who do the Vances seek out for their own advisory needs – personally and on behalf of the church? Do they seek this advice together as a couple?

17. Do the Vances have measurable job descriptions? Are you constantly feeling like they are soooo busy and such victims of the transition? Why or why not?

18. What role does Kari have, what is her authority and why?

19. If you are asked to participate in a “covenant” “core” or “commitment” relationship, what is the definition? What are the leaders responsibility to you in that? Is it primarily one way? Read Malachi 2:1-9

20. Do you feel Vances are qualified leaders you can follow or people you must continue to support because they’ve been so beat up?

Some may think these questions are not anyone’s business. But God’s Word makes plain the role and responsibility of pastors. They must give account to their congregation when their lives do not match up with God’s instructions. It is not wrong for those under their care to judge in this way. If you bring it to their attention, and then feel your own conscience is violated to continue to support them, you are free before God to get out!

This again is not about forgiveness. God does require us to forgive and that usually takes a lot of His help! For many people, forgiveness is a continual process. But even once we forgive, He does not require us to trust, agree, support, or get right with those we have conflict with once it is established that you cannot be reconciled.

There is no way God is going to hold me as accountable for my part at LFF as He will hold accountable the Pastor’s who knew (that is key since many of the pastoral staff were kept in the dark) what they were doing and why.

Reasons

2005-10-20T17:07:00.000-07:00

Due to recent comments, it appears there are some questions as to the reasons for this place. These questions are both valid and deserve answers. This place exists for many reasons. A summary of these reasons is listed in the user profile. Nevertheless, this may be unclear to some. We have many hopes for the outcome of this site but the way this is received is beyond our control. We all come here for many reasons, and it would be impossible for us to summarize these reasons here. However, we can share our intents with this place.

We do not consider ourselves enlightened or above any of the current members. Nor do we feel they are blind by their continued involvement. Many people have had many different experiences with LFF and many of those were nothing but good. Yet, it is the bad experiences, the ones that derail a person's relationship with God that we are speaking out against. We have seen many, many people hurt by LFF and this place is an attempt to stymie these wrongs. We did not create this blog to broadcast the sins of the pastors to the world and we hope this interpretation was not made by anyone.

What happened and is happening at LFF was and is wrong. Unfortunately, hundreds have tried to point this out and in doing so have been silenced, ridiculed, and pushed out. Hence, this site. The truth can be silenced no more. We have come here to speak out against the abuse. Obviously, words lose meaning as they are more frequently used. So we do not throw "abuse" around lightly. People have been emotionally, spiritually, and verbally abused at LFF. THIS IS WRONG. It is equally wrong to allow this to continue to take place without speaking up. These abuses are anything but Biblical, even a non-Christian would label these as wrong. Yet they continue to take place. And it is breaks our heart each time a newly bruised person leaves LFF and in some cases rejects God.

We realize this place is controversial to many. It is hard to hear that these things have gone on in your church. This hardship is magnified if you have not experienced these things first hand. It was said by the senior pastor recently, "There are lots of people out there with opinions." And that is true, anyone with an opinion, a keyboard, and a little know-how can broadcast their thoughts to the world. Yet this is more than just a few people with opinions. This has become a collection of well documented facts as to the reason this pain exists. These things happened and continue to happen. It is not just my opinion that these wrongs are taking place, it is a fact. In the same way, it is not my opinion that New Orleans was devastated by Hurricane Katrina, it is a fact. My opinion on the Hurricane's destruction matters not, it happened.

We truly hope to help the hurting. In this place they have found a voice. Not only have they found a place to share their hurt, they have for the first time, found an ear. It would be easy to label this all as bitterness, but that label is mistaken. It is wrong to silence the hurting and call the causes of their pain false. So no, we write not from bitterness, but from hope.

To some, this is a place of healing, to some a place of hope, to others this is thought provoking and we like that. For many of us it was hard to leave the abuse and manipulation because we knew not what awaited us beyond the walls of LFF. What we have found is so much better. We have found Jesus in a new way, we have found genuine acceptance and love. This acceptance relies not on our performance or action, we have found acceptance for who we are.

So again, this place is here to speak out against the wrong, lend hope and healing to the hurting, and perhaps, show those who are afraid to leave, there is hope. It is not our goal to empty LFF of all its members, or to remove those in authority. Sadly, our words may never cause the abuse to stop but we hope those who are still there will be helped by our words. We think no less of those who remain and realize many are well aware of these wrongs and remain in hopes of ushering in change. We were there once too and even our best efforts were met with the stiffest of resistance. Your continued involvement shows true dedication and should be applauded.

And on a slightly different note we have some comments on commenting. As was said before, we cannot control what anyone says in the comment box. That is the point of the commenting feature here and we in no way wish to censor the thoughts of any writer. Anyone is free to say anything they want and remain anonymous if they wish. We will only remove comments that are vulgar, severely inappropriate, or have outbound links to objectionable material. This has always been our policy and we have only removed one comment from the hundreds posted.

Though we will not edit comments we will extend this thought. It is said, "You attract more bees with honey than vinegar." This seems very applicable to commenting. It is easy to write personal attacks on people who don't agree. In fact, all points of view are encouraged here. But, for the most part, we are all Christians. So, though you are free to say ANYTHING you want, tact is encouraged. Especially when commenting to current members. If you attack anyone, the last thing they will do is see your point of view. They will quickly retreat and put up their best defenses. But, if you present your thoughts logically, tactfully, and in humility, you are more likely to be heard. Perhaps the point is, if there is no bitterness here, it makes it more difficult to label our thoughts as that. Ok, sorry for the soapbox, just some thoughts.

In conclusion (welcome words at the end of a long sermon) thank you all again. We cannot say it enough, Everyone's involvement here is greatly appreciated. We are literally getting over a thousand pageloads a day. We know not what the future holds for this project but we are encouraged by your comments and e-mails. We have even seen one former member make steps back toward God because of what they read here and that in itself makes this all worthwhile.

The Truth About Me

2005-10-19T17:41:00.000-07:00

(e-mail submission)

You persuaded me
To believe a lie
You said it was the truth
You said I was nothing without you
Worse yet, I was loathsome
No one could love me,
employ me,
marry me
If it wasn’t for you

You said all the good in me
Was because of you
For many years I believed you
I dared not disagree
I spent my best years toiling
At a harrowing pace
I paid my toll to you

You wounded me
To make yourself look good
I thought: “I must really be that bad.
I must be defective.”
Even though in God’s word
I found a different truth
The truth about me

But according to you
I wasn’t qualified
To recognize truth in the scriptures
That right was reserved
For the anointed ones
The ones with all the power to shame
And shame me they did

Even after I left your clutches
I showed you fierce loyalty
I paid you my dues
I gave you the credit
Because I still believed your lies
You were still the reason
For all the good in me

Until one day when a crack appeared
A crack in the mighty façade
A crack that soon became
A giant chasm
I started to see
The truth shining through
The truth that confirmed
What I had long been feeling inside

The truth is you were wrong
You lied to my face
You said you all believed the same thing
But it wasn’t true, was it
Your anointed ones had disagreed
Many times they tried to correct your errors
But you would have none of it
So they kept up the façade

You were wrong about me
I am not bad or defective
I don’t have to work so hard
To earn respect or favor
It wasn’t your greatness
That made me worthy of love

The truth about me
Is that I am loved and lovable
People like me today
I like me
People liked me years ago
Before I met you

No, it couldn’t be you
That makes me worthy
But you fooled me for a time
Today I will believe
The truth about me

Rebuttals

2005-10-18T13:52:00.000-07:00

It seems this place is becoming read by more people everyday. We truly can not believe the response and are shocked by how many people continue to visit this place. It is not only frequented by us, the former members, but by those who are still there. We hope those who remain see the true motives here and take this at face value. However, it seems that in typical LFF fashion, the arguments are forming and lines are being drawn. As usual, those on the inside, are making more indelible, this line that separates them from us. And behind that line, the rebuttals are taking shape.

Now, it is not our desire to be hostile or create any animosity towards the truth by those who remain. Yet we feel it our duty to address the most common arguments making their rounds in the inner circles of LFF. Unfortunately, these are the same tactics LFF has always employed and these methods truly attest to the lack of change there. We have been fortunate enough to maintain many relationships with those who still attend. They have been informative and have been forthcoming with their own questions as well as that which is being said to discredit the truths of these pages.

It is not our desire to tell anyone how to think; instead we hope, in presenting the facts logically, people will be enabled to make their own logical decisions. It is so hard when you are surrounded by an environment that exerts so much control to see anything else. And that, among other things has been the reason for this place. We do not, now, consider ourselves enlightened or above those who remain. We instead, wish only to show the words here as fact and realize that unless you have experienced the things being discussed here, our words may seem esoteric. As this post unfolds we will attempt to address the arguments coming from current members.

The first argument is a classic. Not in the sense of timelessly good; instead it is so inadequate an argument it has a name. It is a fallacy, a mistake so huge it is taught to every entry level philosophy student as simply deplorable. Again the leadership is employing ad hominem arguments. Unfortunately, these arguments are at best, foolish. They are a personal attack that is irrelevant to the arguments on the table. Though this has been addressed in several places on this blog, LFF is again reverting to that which they have always known. So please, we beg of those listening to these arguments, disregard them.

First of all, the LFF leadership does not know who is maintaining this blog. Sure there are guesses, but they are just that; guesses. Besides not knowing who the administrators are, almost all of the comments and e-mails are posted anonymously. Sure the pastors are familiar with the more detailed e-mails, one author even intended that. But to throw out every hurt, every pain, and every tear because someone questions the authors’ character would be a mistake. Don’t let personal attacks on a writer blind you from the truth.

The next argument they present is in part, the reason why many of us have left. The fact that this rebuttal would be used to render the words of this site meaningless is reprehensible. Yet this is indeed the case. The statement goes as follows, “Most of the things discussed on this blog happened in the past, under the former senior pastors. LFF has changed and the new pastors are running things differently.” This is, to put it mildly, a lie. A majority of the administrators, and I would venture to say, at least half of the readers, left long after “the baton was passed.” Why? Because it is still the same abusive environment it has always been. There is one person in particular who was and is more duplicitous, abusive, and manipulative than the former pastors ever were.

The current senior pastors would like you to believe that there have been changes, and to a certain extent, there have. Yet, no change has come to the underlying problem and therefore, the manipulation, abuse, and lies continue. I am the most recently departed on this team here and I left four years after the “mantle” was passed on. By the current senior pastors, I have been lied to, put out, and degraded by numerous bouts of “righteous” anger. This is in no way unique to my situation. If one takes a moment to reflect on the people who have left since the transition, it is more than clear that the problems still exist.

Pastors, PCL’s, CCL’s, HCL’s (I know there are cell groups now) and church employees have all left under the new leadership’s watch. Why? Because of past hurts? In some cases; yes. But in many cases it was due to the fact that the current senior pastors are just as oblivious to the pain they inflict as their predecessors. They are unable to admit they have done wrong and when confronted, in love, with their failures, they incredulously deny the obvious truth.

Yet another argument is evidenced in the questions of a current member to a WSU psychology professor. People seem to feel the accounts and details on this site are exaggerated and tainted by emotional wounds. (It is interesting how LFF generally discredits the teachings of the psychology department. Yet, when the thoughts of a professor, unfamiliar with the details, seem agreeable, they form the basis of yet another shoddy rebuttal….)

**********************QUESTION********************************

I am not a student, just a Pullmanite with a thought that's been bugging me, and I am curious to know if there have been any studies on it, or if it's common knowledge and I just don't know it. =) I wasn't sure how to find out, it's a bit too complex for a Google search, so I thought I'd just ask one of the professors in town, and your description seemed most like the question I have. I understand professors are very busy, so if you are not able to answer for awhile (or at all), I will understand completely. Since I am not a student or a colleague of yours, I expect you to treat my question as a low priority. =)

Okay, my question concerns the reliability of a person's memory as concerns traumatic events in their life. Meaning: say a person goes through an event that either seemed or was indeed offensive, abusive, or traumatic for them. It seems from what I've seen, that if the person does not "come to terms" with the event, or is not "reconciled" with the people or institution who caused the pain, then their re-telling of the event is often exaggerated, and made to sound worse than it actually was. In other words, can a person be trusted to relate the story with objective accuracy, if they still feel the pain of the wound? A second part to my question is this: when people do exaggerate a negative event, do they do so knowingly, to garner more sympathy, or have their memories really been corrupted, to believe the exaggeration?

**************************RESPONSE************************************

Thanks for your email. I'd be happy to try and answer your question. Reliability of memory is a funny thing. If 10 people witness a car accident and report it to police, the police tend to 10 related but differing reports. What this means is that each of us experiences the world differently. As a result we all have different interpretations and memories of an event. Hence, what psychologist have found is that the "accuracy" of a memory is less important than a person's "perception" of the event.

Some people are able to cope with traumatic things quite easily, others have a more difficult time. Moreover, some may be affected by events for years or even a lifetime. For example, many WWII veterans have remained affected by their war experiences for 60+ years. For people who are strongly affected by an event or a part of their life, there are several approaches to helping them overcome those traumas. The goal is not to forget the events but to reduce how much anxiety, anger, frustration, or sadness they feel when they think of the event. The key to treatment is that the person want to deal with their feelings. Interestingly, though we might expect that no-one in their right mind would want to continue feeling upset by things long past, many people are not willing to accept treatment - either because they don't think it will work, they don't want to put in the effort, or they don't want to have to deal directly with the thing that upsets them. Those who care about them can help by finding treatment, giving them emotional support such as letting them know that it will be tough but that they will be there for them, and - in tougher cases - by carefully asking the person about why they want to continue living with these feelings and how it fits in with their life (this is a leverage technique since most people will acknowledge that they don't want to live with such feelings).

In answer to your second question, there is attention that comes with feeling bad. For example, if you have a friend who has a cold but hides it, you tend to give them less sympathy. But, if that friend "appears" very sick, you are more likely to give them more attention. The same is true for these negative feelings. However, traumatic memories - based on real or exaggerated events - are common and hence, there are a lot of treatment options. There are many local psychologists right here in Pullman who can help with such things. Hope this helps and thanks for the question.

Assistant Professor

Department of Psychology

Washington State University

Interesting point. There is definite validity to the statement above, but without the supporting details this rationale truly has no grounds here. It is both short-sighted and cold to call the events here “exaggerated.” It would be easy to believe this if you have not experienced the abuse at the hands of the senior pastors. For, the events that have transpired between sheep and shepherd are so outrageous, they seem completely false. Nevertheless, that is not the case. I know not how many more accounts, comments, e-mails and heartaches need posting before some will see the validity of these things. Being that I, and all of the team members here have experienced first hand, the travesties posted here, I can assure you these accounts are fact.

As administrators, we have opted to keep most specifics under wraps. The details posted by others and from e-mails are graphic enough and should serve as ample evidence. Sadly, if any single administrator were to post a list of specifics, it would be even harder for those who doubt these events to see their truth. In many of our cases, the specifics are beyond comprehension. Though they happened to us and unfolded before our own eyes, it is still difficult to believe these things could have ever taken place. Again, ambiguity, but the truth can at times be too shocking. Thus, exaggeration is the furthest thing from the truth. Instead, we have taken the opposite approach and done our best candy coat events, lending diplomacy to our writing for fear of being labeled liars. As was said by an e-mailer, if we could walk you through this entire blog with a highlighter, we could show you specifics that we have witnessed first hand. And in these specifics are no exaggerations. So, please, don’t ascribe these accounts to misinterpretations and exaggerations. That only deepens the wounds of the hurting.

We are not seeking anyone’s sympathy. We don’t write these facts or recount our pains for the condolences of the public. Instead, this is our humble attempt at lending a voice to that which has been ignored for far too long. We seek not the sympathy of strangers or the reassurances of some digital world, we only desire the truth be known. To exaggerate the events related here would be pointless, a true waste of all of our time. It is sickening that any reader would assume embellishment on the part of the authors. This becomes even more disturbing when people are searching for the ability to forgive and trust again. There is a genuine desire for healing expressed on these pages and for someone to come along and label the wounds of the recovering as bigger than life is detrimental to this process.

Then there are the most vexing statements from the pastors. “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. The people writing here obviously have grievances and they need to go talk to the person who has offended them.” Really? You read your Bible and felt lead to apply that wisdom here? How sad. It is obvious this site is not vengeful. That is not the point here. People are only relating truths; they are naming pains and hoping to help others. Yet, some pastor, someone who thinks they have a deeper understanding of human motive, labels this as vengeful. Since when is healing vengeful; have you even read anything written here? This site contains pages and pages of truth; there are no malicious intents here. To label this as vengeful or hateful is childish. It is nothing but a meager attempt to derail the truth with inapplicable Scripture. It is not our desire to “dethrone” the pastors; it is our desire to state the truth. We hope to help the hurting and save others from the same. To sit by and watch these things continue to happen would be shirking our duty before God.

As for talking about grievances with the offenders, this has been done. There have been hundreds of people who have tried to talk to the senior pastors and to no avail. Their observations fall on deaf ears; they are labeled as divisive. The truth is silenced by the senior pastors through unfounded accusations. There has been no lack of effort on the part of the departed; we have gone out of our way to resolve the travesties that continue at LFF. We are not harboring bitterness we are merely stating the facts. The onus lies not on the hurt but on those who caused this pain. The fact that many have forgiven those who admit no wrong is commendable. Yet, those they have forgiven still refuse to admit any wrong and that is atrocious. And though this was expected, it truly grieves us all. With a simple click, the pastors come, they read, they judge, and they leave. No apology, no remorse, no admission of guilt. What more can be said? The facts are here but they write them off with a host of mediocre excuses. To ignore the facts is one thing; but to say the truth is exaggerated, vengeful, or simply false only asseverates the gravity of the problems being addressed here.

Perhaps, in this site’s infancy, these words could be written off as false. Yet, to attempt to discredit the truth now shows serious mental deficiency. This project now contains the thoughts and accounts of hundreds. Who in their right mind would accuse everyone here of overstating the truth or of lying? This is absurd; it is like a defense lawyer standing before the jury calling hundreds of witnesses liars. Is this place a sham, is it truly a smattering of facts embellished by the writers for sympathy? No!!!! If there are those who still feel otherwise, we invite your thoughts.

Hello and Welcome...

2005-10-17T18:57:00.000-07:00

It has come to our recent attention that this blog was spoken of in a member's meeting this weekend. It seems the senior pastors are refusing to read the blog. This of course is no surprise. This is a problem that has been discussed many times and this statement only confirms that this problem is still there. Whenever someone points out problems and faults at LFF, they are ignored. The senior pastors acknowledging this place, yet ignoring these hurts and problems grieves us. We had hoped their silence meant they knew not of this place. Instead they choose to turn away, effectively burying their heads in the sand. If I close my eyes will it go away? No!!! Ignorance brings no resolution, it only salts these wounds. The more involved members are even told not to come here at all. "It will only make you mad," they say. So not only is ignorance proclaimed in member's meeting it is discipled to the likes of the CCF band. What an odd thing to disciple.

We have seen a large spike in our page loads and can only attribute that to the new audience generated by this recent member’s meeting. We have received several e-mails today from current members relating their own pains and struggles as they continue their relationship with LFF. Out of respect to their requests we will not post these but we thank you for the support. We love hearing everyone’s thoughts, whether or not you agree; that is why this place is here. So far we have received overwhelming support, yet there has to be those out there who feel otherwise and we welcome your thoughts too. Your silence thus far is truly fascinating. If you are new here, you can easily add a comment in the comment box or e-mail it to the address provided on the side of the site.

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Segue…

To the Leadership of LFF:
Please allow us to once again try and explain to you what is happening here. For many years you have hurt hundreds of members in the name of God. This has been done through twisting Scriptures, manipulation, ungodly anger, double-standards, and countless other specific wrongs. For this, you claim no wrong! Your apology is a feeble “We are sorry you feel that way.” And as the hurting struggle, you heap upon them guilt, shame and insults, publicly disgracing them and calling to question their credibility.

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We receive many questions and stories about the control and manipulation that takes place at LFF. We have also addressed these things to the leadership in countless meetings for many years. Every time, these grievances were denied as lies and we would feel your wrath for not sharing the same vision of the church. Fortunately, you can no longer deny this, or anything else, behind closed doors. On this site are many readers and many of them still attend. The manipulation and control at LFF is wrong!!!! Though you have been alerted to this many times you have done nothing but shoot the messenger. Changes have been superficial attempts to spruce up the image but the root of the problem has yet to be changed.

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We have published this blog for two months. Each day the number of emails we receive increases. Since the first post we have had a total of 36 posts by almost as many unique authors. We currently receive more e-mails to post than we can keep up with and have debated posting twice a day. As you proceed through each post on here you will see there are over 200 comments. Though we assume some people have commented more than once; it is clear there is a wide array of contributors here. This site is not just authored by a couple of disgruntled members who had personality conflicts, but by a variety of members. This ranges from members who have not yet left, to members who have been gone for many years. And the voice of many is the same; “LFF has destroyed innocent trust through an ungodly manipulation of people for the personal gain of the leadership.” I have been there when this has happened and anyone who speaks out is written off as a loony, or just a sinner who must be turned over to Satan. The truth of the matter is that most of us are in churches and Jesus is becoming more real to us every day as he heals our wounds and helps us to trust again.

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We are not a small angry mob with a personal vendetta against LFF. We are the throngs of people that were hurt by the wrongs of LFF leadership. We echo the concerns of hundreds and hundreds who have left when their voices were heard no more. So no, we are not a band of “cult” labeling church haters seeking media attention in hopes of bringing down the big bad wolf. We are your friends, your family members, members of leadership, and God loving people who have been set free from the abuses of LFF. Yet, for some reason the leadership has immediately denied our hurts and is now advising current members to stay away. THIS IS A RED FLAG!!!

Why? We only speak the truth; a truth you say is distorted by emotional wounds. Yet to acknowledge these wounds only adds to the credibility of those who carry them. You caused these wounds and now seek to silence the crying. What are you so afraid of? Let people read and let them make up their own minds. If these claims are false then let them read and they will become more loyal and a closer knit group. If this is truly persecution then you will only benefit from our words as they cause a banding together by your sheep. But, if they are true then is it not right to let them know? The truth shall set you free and if there is no truth on these pages your cause will be vindicated and your member’s loyalty strengthened.

Throughout history one of the most infamous techniques used to control people has been censorship. It has had a long history in the church as well as most dictatorships and abusive forms of governments. Here are some highlights. (I'll keep this relatively short but if you would like more information on any situation there are plenty of resources.)

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In 1517 Martin Luther posted his ninety-five thesis on the on the door of a catholic church. The big complaint was that because most people could not read, the priests were lying to their church members and telling them that buying indulgence was the only way to heaven. Luther posted his thesis to shed light on the lies of the religious authorities. For his revelation, he was cast into exile and became an outlaw. In the end many people saw the truth and an entire denomination came about because someone spoke up.

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There are countless other examples within the church and there are those beyond the church. In the political realm, we see Communist Russia which had a very strict censorship policy that was used to enforce a communistic regime. In 75 short years Russia became poor and weak. The control they attempted to exert brought a mighty nation to its knees.

In Iraq, we saw the same thing. With only one news station controlled by one man, many people believed he was the greatest and that he protected and provided for them. In truth many of us have a better quality of life and know what a leader should be able to give and we were not fooled for a minute. How many times have we watched the news and thought, "Wow life will be better for them now that they are not being used for the gain of Saddam Hussein."

So to the leadership, there is nothing to fear and no need to steer others from this place. It will only strengthen their relationship to LFF or help them move on to a better environment. It is a true win-win situation for you and your members. And to those of you who are reading for the first time, take this all in with an open mind. Don’t let anyone tell you how to interpret this; that is why we have the Holy Spirit. If questions arise, seek their answer in the Bible. Our only intent here is to help. Lest you think otherwise, we seek not to destroy LFF. We simply hope to help in this healing process and pray His comfort for every member, past and present.

From our inbox...

2005-10-17T00:01:00.000-07:00

This is another e-mail we recently received.

As a middle-leadership past lff type person, I need to say to whoever may be reading this that may have been “under” my ministry, I am so sorry for the abuse I inflicted on you and I ask that you please forgive me. I cannot say that I was somehow forced to do and say the things I did, because I made a choice. I think it is incredibly ironic and so much more painful to feel the hurt of the abuse inflicted on me through the years, but to know now that I am equally guilty of putting that pain on others and being “the hands extended” of the pastors who asked us to serve in those roles. I can’t receive forgiveness and healing even from God, let alone those I hurt, without taking responsibility for my choices. I can’t ask my kids forgiveness because they were too young to understand. Someday I may be able to tell them in order to keep them from falling prey to what we went through, but they were too young, and are still too young to understand or even remember all of the spankings and neglect. Fortunately my husband and I left early enough that they will not have memories of the experience, although I will always fight the self-hatred I carry for being so cruel. It is so hard to forgive yourself for cruelty to your own children once your eyes are open.

To those who may have been in my husband’s and my home group or care group, I am sorry for the control, for the manipulation, for the anger, that I showed. I believed that I was helping and that I was making you a better Christian and parent and employee and steward of your finances. I believed I was giving back help to others that I had received and was grateful for. I see now that it wasn’t help at all; it was cruel and wrong. I showed no respect for you as adults and individuals who should have been given the space to lead your family and make decisions for yourselves, to follow dreams, and take risks!! How fun that is now that we have freedom to do that! We were much too cautious within the walls of lff, there was too much fear. I wish I could take back so many conversations. I wish that I could go back and correct the wrong things I said. I wish I could take back all of the things I said to the GG students that I lead into deception. I am sorry for the red ink I put on papers of JCD’s and Catechism students where you tried to do your best or just survive in the system, and I told you it wasn’t good enough. I’m sorry for teaching you to tithe too much money to a church that was not using the funds properly. I’m sorry especially that I did it for selfish reasons, wanting acceptance, and promotion too. It is most difficult for me to face not just that I made the choice to be abused, but that I made the choice to abuse others. I have tried to talk to those I know I have hurt specifically, but to others who are hurting, please know that there are so many of us who were middle-leadership who would take back so many things that we’ve done, and would love to hug you, cry with you, and beg your forgiveness. We were wrong to hurt you. You are so loved by God, unconditionally. I think we mostly all know that in our heads, but I pray you know it in your heart as well, and feel it all over, that God loves you and wants you close and we will all get back to that place where we know him in a new way, not out of fear, but out of the amazing love that He has for us.

I read some very negative comments about Joe F and his brother and it made me sad. I want to say, please, please allow for grace anywhere outside of the Barden clan. He is EXACTLY where many of us were before our eyes were open, and I feel for him and for the extreme pain he may someday know for the part he has played in the Barden’s church. My husband was one of pkv’s “sons” and believe me it is a treacherous place for any man to be. If you aren’t a wife of one of her “sons” you may not understand what that means, but your husband is told constantly about his potential in the Kingdom of God, how spiritual he is, how important he is to her. How she looks for him at services. I could go on and on, but these words of encouragement from her are only to the sons, not the wives, not the kids, never as a family. Those of you who are one of the wives, know the look she gives your husband, the special smile and wink. None of those sons married wives worthy of them. Why pv allows his wife to take all of these boys into her spiritual harem and control their hearts and minds the way she does under the guise of spiritual leadership is beyond me. It is sick, and it destroys marriages. My husband went through so much pain after we left. We had to get to know each other all over again and figure out how to communicate without leadership in the middle. It was hard, but the best thing ever for our relationship. We are closer now than we ever have been.

But back to Joe F and his family, please apply grace. You may have been hurt badly by Joe, given wrong advice by Joe, but you very well may have by me too! And I’m begging you to please pray, rather than throw stones in his direction. He is so very talented, and he and his wife have a family and a future that will hopefully move beyond lff in the near future. I think we need to pray even more for his brother who married into the family and can’t ever escape pkv’s reach or her parents without serious turmoil. To say who is more or less talented is really not relevant. God uses us all in so many different ways and there really is no better and worse. We all have impact in our immediate families with our spouses and kids, and that is the most important place of all. After all of the grace that was not extended to us, let’s be those who extend grace the most. And, I suppose I should add, I’ve thrown stones too, so I apologize for correcting something I’m equally guilty of, so this advice is for myself too. Probably one of the steps in the healing process and a lesson better learned earlier rather than later. We love our lff friends dearly, and pray for those friends who are still there. Some of them are unaffected and quite happy, but I still pray that their families will always be their true first priority in their time and in every other way, and that God will always be known as the unconditionally loving God that He is.

Acceptance (via e-mail)

2005-10-14T16:35:00.000-07:00

Here is some more e-mail.

For those of us who have experienced the abuse personally, this site has become more addictive than "Desperate Housewives." Every day I am lured to tune in to read the last episode of "Innocence Destroyed." Perhaps one of the contributors could write a screenplay and submit it to the producers of the annual Christmas production at LFF and call it The Grinch who stole Trust. I'll bet they wouldn't have to give tickets away for that one, in fact it might become a means of paying for their indebtedness. Theater is what they do best at LFF anyway. Everything was an act of some sort. The biggest and sorriest act was to tell you that they loved you. What they didn't tell you is that their love was conditional on performance and that translates into God's love for you is equally at risk.
In the last week since I discovered this blog, I have been overwhelmed by the pain described by many of you as you continue to have these trust issues. One of our greatest needs is to love and be loved and to manipulate someone by withholding that love is nothing short of witchcraft. I once heard a noted evangelist use the Galatians passage as the basis for this conclusion. (You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?) "To bring under malign influence". This is what is clearly happening at LFF, to suck you into their control and influence by first telling you that they are your biggest fans (an actual quote), you are awesome and that they love you and then proceed to malign you by making you measure up to a standard set by the leadership to which you can never aspire. This includes church membership, the ultimate acceptance criteria. We were told that once you were a member, you would really begin to have friends. The only problem was that you needed better credentials to get into the Kingdom of LFF than the Kingdom of God.

The theatrics surrounding our interview for membership deserved an academy award by the "Vice Pastor". We were told how much we were loved and valued. The King & Queen themselves said we were a shoe-in for membership, we couldn't fail. After the usual interrogation, do you do crew, do you write in your spiritual notebook etc. (all very important criteria for membership into this elite body, mind you), the interrogator had to excuse himself for a minute and then came back with a sheet of paper as if he had just now discovered this in the bathroom or wherever he went. Lo and behold, it was our tithing record. Did we need foodstamps to survive? How could we possibly live on such a meager income? All of this in feigned surprise that we must be poverty stricken based on the amount we tithed. I don't know if he did the math in his head or if he had done the calculations well in advance of this meeting, ready to veto the deal at the last minute. After this the meeting was suddenly over. "Come back in one year".

My initial reaction was shame and then gratitude that they loved us so much, then came the overwhelming sense that we had been had, humiliated and rejected, in one gracious performance. Isn't this the greatest church in the world?

Since this site is devoted to healing, let me say that God is bigger than LFF and His love is unconditional. I have been so reassured by the comments submitted that in spite of the misrepresentation, bewitching and false love carried out by the leaders of LFF, they have not turned against God but in many cases have grown stronger in their relationship. We chose to start a house church where those who were affected and bruised could come and in a very non-institutional setting find acceptance and healing. In one of our talks, I gave 10 reasons to feel good about yourself in 2005. No. 4 in the list taken from Ephesians 1 was "I have been accepted in the beloved". I began to consider the implications of that statement in relation to what we experienced at LFF. I considered the example of printing up a brochure for my business. I can create images and layer them. I can send them to the back and lock them behind a cover layer. I can see the image through the first layer but I can't select it anymore to edit it. I am in the beloved like my name is in my brochure. I can see it but I can't mess with it. Only if I go behind the protective layers can I edit it's properties. I think that is similar to what the Holy Spirit does. Our name is sealed in the beloved and no one, not even the senior pastor can take it out.

Everybody Get Together Try And....

2005-10-14T13:33:00.000-07:00

A reader has contacted us several times about setting up a meet and greet with the readers of this blog. This is a separate project not sponsored by the administrators here but we think it is a great idea. Obviously, you are all scattered all over the country and geographical boundaries make this impossible for some. In addition, we realize that many people wish to leave that part of their life in the past and the idea of a meet and greet is out of the question.

But for those of you who are interested that are not half a world away, here is what is in place so far. The coordinator of this event is not an administrator here. They have a separate e-mail address so e-mailing them will in no way give your identity to us here on the blog team. We have no way of accessing this person's account so if you have been hesitant to e-mail us, this is not us. The event would be held in the Seattle area as it seems a great number of former members reside in Western Washington. Beyond that there are no more details; no time and place as of yet. However, if you are interested, e-mail the coordinator (a Western Washington resident) and they will provide you with the specifics of this event as they become available. God Bless you all and we hope this helps restore some old friendships and forge new ones. Our only request to those who attend is; forget all the things LFF told you about the people who left; many times those stories were lies. We ask that no one let some story from the pastors hinder your relationships.

The event coordinator's e-mail address:
lffmeetandgreet@gmail.com

Another comment....

2005-10-13T23:40:00.000-07:00

This was posted by a reader in the comment box. They have asked us to make this a post on the main page. Enjoy!!!

This is my first time reading & commenting on this site where you are all being so open & vulnerable (if I were to say so OHT would that sting? I don't want it to).

First I must say that the heading "LFF destroys lives" startled me. Not that lives have not or are not being slashed through the mud. I hurt a lot over the pain that so many, many people that have been such an integral part of my life have lived & are living. There has been real pain also in my life & those of my immediate family that hurts too- I'm not a joyful martyr.

My point it that LFF both gave life & took life.

I came to Pullman like most of you did as an 18-yr. old college student. Like many of you my life pre-LFF had not been "pleasant-ville". Emotional, psychological & physical abuse was apart of it. I had become a Christian as a young teen, made choices & lived a life that resembled more Mary Mag before she meet Jesus than after. I had been surrounded my whole life by Christians, many that professed Jesus on one hand, watched, supported, abused &/or lied to me on the other. In one of the 1st prophecies over my life at LFF Jesus shared my experience by telling me that He knew exactly how people who were called by His name had touched me. He said "you have known those who "say" that they are Christians but look to me". [Personal note on "say": I knew the point wasn't if they really were or were not Christians- the point was my focus].

I'm not saying I did or do look to Him, as I should. But this is still one of the most precious Words to me because I knew He knew my pain. What had those that had said that they loved Him done to Him? Was Judas really just trying to manipulate Jesus into becoming what he thought he should be? Did he intend the evil for good or the good for evil? I don't know. But God used it. And because of it I have relationship with Him now & for eternity.

I guess I am likening LFF to the same. I was shot down when I was hurting, told to "buck-up" & repent when my world was falling apart. When I was sick I was ALWAYS in trouble. Where was the one to pick me up & clean me up & love on me? Not there. When my greatest fear was to be alone- I was left all alone & chastised for being demanding. When I grieved - I grieved. I was hurt most when I was already wounded. Pushed aside when I had repented & returned longing to be touched. And as were you all, I was labeled. This person = This.

But Jesus never stopped loving me, longing to touch me & use His people to comfort me.

Now that I have agreed with the life that was taken from me let me share about the life that was given.

I know the Word of God. I rhema the Word of God. My foundations that were built on all else have been shaken & they have fallen (PAINFULLY)- but on the truth I can still stand. I do have strong foundations- they needed dusting off but they are there. I have solid bible training. More personal time in the Word then most Pastors. - Try & stand back & take the legalism out of the sayings, the checklists, the reports. As I actually saw that there had once been real life in the Catholic mass (after enough years away I actually heard what was said & because of all the years of teaching on the Word of God). - Somewhere in there was real life.

Remember, we make legalism: what today is manna tomorrow is slime full of maggots. Let's try not to force feed ourselves or others yesterday's manna.

I know my God is true & every man a liar. People before LFF, people in & through LFF & people after LFF. None of them are different. Some mess with my head more (was it at age 13 or at 30?), some for longer periods of time (was it the rape at 16 or the decades at LFF?). Some have truly loved me, many that did didn't know how. And many times I didn't know how to receive it.

Why does God allow such awful things? This is the #1 most asked question in my post LFF life. And it rarely has to do with LFF. Awful things are awful. They are not LFF, they are not the devastation in New Orleans or Pakistan. They are the child that crossed the street by my church & was hit by a car. Got up feeling bruised but ok- thank God it wasn't that bad. He later died of a massive internal hemorrhage. He had been adopted by a loving family, saved out of a life of poverty, & the orphanage. Where was God in that?

The good in the awful that has touched me? I can often find in it a changed me.

Compassion - it's me taking on someone else's passion. Having already hurt personally, often I can go into battle for those around me that are devastated & paralyzed by what they are in the midst of.

My head knowledge can be challenged but my heart knowledge cannot. What I have walked is mine. I minister out of a life that is not perfect. Believe it or not I learned this at LFF. Not by others example but often by their lack of it. I minister out of a life that has been littered with pain. Pain that both caused me to jump into & to jump out of Jesus' lap. Today those near me know I struggle with depression. They know that when I enter into worship I go someplace else & Jesus ministers to my soul. They know I HAVE to lean on Him & that I don't have it all. They know that I mess up, that I can be hurtful. They also know my love. They see our Jesus in me- sometime they feel His hand in my touch, His voice in my heartcry.

At LFF I lived in community. Post LFF I live in an awful place called the real world. Where people freely smile in my face & stab me in the back. Where if I try to get real with someone they can't handle it. Where I continue to fail & NO ONE forgives me. It's the real world. It sucks (I hate that term but it fits). I live in a world of faces covered with masks. Not much has changed, yet a lot has.

Did people I trust mess with my head? Yep. And as long as I trust they will.

After living a few decades as a LFFer & now living many years post LFF I must say that the other most precious part of my life in & through LFF is YOU.

When was the last time I looked you in the eye & told you that I am grateful for you? I know I never said it enough- nor would I be able to even if I began now & continue through our dear Lords eternity. THANK YOU.

No, not thank you for hurting me, even when you were just trying to do the right thing or what you felt you were told to. Not for the many times that I hurt you. But THANK YOU for living with me, for the moments we touched, for the warmth & depth of the Jesus that is in you.

I know Jesus has been faithful to heal me A LOT. I also know that this week I have been struggling anew with despair. I know that He will one day take away all my tears. But for now I cry. I hurt. I hurt others. But I also love & am loved. I care- that in itself often hurts.

I pray that you all continue to find healing. It scars, but it will heal.

May you find what it is that your heart truly longs for - Jesus. Him pure.

Not through filthy human hands but also often through filthy human hands.

In Num. 22 God used an ass. In my life He has used many & at times I am that one which He uses.

Jesus Bless you as only He can.

Thanks for listening. Did I mention that is something else I miss? - your listening.

Things Learned

2005-10-12T12:47:00.000-07:00

Those who have attended LFF and since left have learned many things from the experience. Some of these things have greatly helped in finding or selecting a new church. To that end this post is dedicated.

While many have expressed that simply finding any church other than LFF was an amazing relief. Truly, moving from a controlling and abusive environment to any safe environment has obvious value. However, there are things learned from LFF that have opened our eyes to how things can be better at other churches. These are posted below:

1. I am very wary of churches undergoing large building projects. I was there when Karl Barden effectively pulled the wool over our eyes and convinced us Living Faith Fellowship needed a new building. That year, as with every year at LFF, we sang "There's Gonna Be A Revival In The Land" and listened to the 'prophets' proclaim that the harvest was ripe and God was bringing 'great increase.' Karl told us to expect the communities to come flocking to our church. What was really his laziness in being unwilling to have more than one service in the smaller building turned into the manipulation of the congregation to undertake the building of a 2200 seat monstrosity. This church has financially crippled the entire congregation. I could write an essay on how money ought to be spent in a church, but that is not the point here. At LFF the building is really a sunk cost that looks horrible in the eyes of the community, and is a 2200 seat reminder to anyone who knows the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship why they should avoid association at all costs. I would hate to be part of another church wasting money on a large building which would hurt growth, evangelism and ability to support the poor and needy and Biblical programs in the future.

2. (via email) I will never go to a church again where the pastors are worshipped or viewed with an unnecessary amount of success. I visited a church for awhile after leaving LFF which I thought was great. That was until I found out how the senior pastors were treated. They had "armorbearers" which took care of their every need and waited on them hand and foot. These servants were bending over backward to take care of all the tiny little details that the pastors needed and were treated like rubbish. The pastors clearly thought they were above the people serving them, and had obvious pride issues. This was an eerie reminder to me of the situation at LFF, where I witnessed the lives of some of my closest friends ruined through close service of the pastors. The LFF pastors created this conception that those that served them were the ones that were closest to them, and were those with true 'servants hearts.' Publicly the servants were treated well in most cases to further the false notion in the eyes of those on the outside looking in. But privately, these servants who wanted the love and acceptance of the pastors were abused and manipulated and used to take care of everyday tasks in the pastors' families' lives they felt they were above. I know of true stories of those who have cleaned Vance's childrens rooms on a weekly basis while the kids played. People did their laundry, folded their clothes and undergarments, cleaned their entire houses, made them food, gave them nightly massages, waited on them hand and foot--all in the name of 'service of the Lord.' This was not exclusive to vances, but was pretty much standard across the board for most of the LFF leadership. Serving in itself is not wrong in any way, as truly Jesus served everyone. However, when the servant is abused and manipulated in a way that is detrimental to them physically and emotionally, that is wrong. That is what scares me about pastors who are full of pride and think they deserve special service.

3. (via email) At my new church, one does not have to attend church for years and take special classes to become a member. At LFF we were required to take the introductory church classes, take two years of "Catechism" classes and have it verified by our giving records that we were tithing 23.3% of our gross income before we were allowed to become members. We also had to be approved by pastors who subjectively judged whether or not they thought our hearts and character were supportive of the vision of the church. If we were found lacking in their eyes, we were not eligible for membership. And, if you are not a member of LFF, you are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. You do not get to know how or where money is spent, and you are not able to speak your mind (your voice makes no difference there anyway. the leadership does whatever it wants.) At my new church we went to one post service meeting, held once a month, where those who wished to be members of the church came and the vision and beliefs of the church were explained. The beliefs were basic (one God, the Trinity, water baptism, etc...) and were those all Christians should believe. If we believed the same thing, we prayed together with everyone else and just like that we were members and could attend meetings to vote on important church decisions. Can you imagine the idea of an objective vote at LFF?

4. (via email) We found that too much service had adverse effects on our family. My wife and I spent so much of our time serving that our kids behavior was affected. Because we didn't spend enough quality time with them-playing, loving, conversing-they developed some unsatisfactory behaviors of kids who were not loved enough. The Vances had convinced us that our service was needed literally seven days a week. I could give you a rundown of what we did every day, but I am sure you understand and relate. In our new church, we have found a couple of ways our service really helps the local body. But the time committed is only a fraction of what it was at LFF. Our children have come around and our family is closer than ever. I am glad we got out of there when our kids were young. I see the results of the families really close to leadership whose kids were never shown the proper love and attention. I fear for the Vance's own children. I am so thankful that our eyes were opened before our family was sucked in and became like the average LFF family.

There must be many other helpful lessons learned by those who have attended LFF in the past. We invite readers to post examples, thoughts or questions in the comment box...

Reflection (via e-mail)

2005-10-11T11:18:00.000-07:00

First of all- this is a good blog, thank you to whoever is maintaining it, I think it is important for people who have left LFF to have a place to talk about what happened to them, and to share their feelings with people who may understand- I have found that unless you were there, and experienced it, it can't be understood. I have spoken to other Pastors to try and make sense of some of the things, and almost immediately I can see them get nervous or get that look like "uh-oh" a dissenter, or a trouble maker- but I think here we all know that we weren't. We were just hurt and confused, and this type of expression brings some peace to those who use it.

I left LFF after spending 5 years of my young adult life with them. I made some mistakes (that I admitted), but they weren't life and death mistakes, just stupid things like being sloppy and forgetful, not keeping track of things correctly etc- things that since I left I have learned were fairly normal for where I was in my life. I am not making excuses for them, but I received a response that made me reassess my relationship with the church. Up to that point I was a Bible Study leader, a JCD, an intern, and a campus rep, I had developed a real relationship with Jesus, and felt like although I had problems, I was zealous to serve him. But I have to admit that when my CCL and HCL started questioning my sexuality, and my deliverance etc I was confused, scared and overwhelmingly sad. Yet, I stuck it out for some time, actually I held on believing I would be forgiven until one morning at crew. I was accused by an HCL (not my own) of making a sheep fall because I didn't get them to a baptism service on time, and I was told I was selfish and unrepentant. Now, this was very painful because I felt like I had given the last 5 years of my life to the exact opposite thing, I had spent those years documenting my life in 15 minute increments to show that I was spending time bringing people to the Lord- not making them stumble. All that being said, I have to say that I am sad for the people who have been hurt, and I know some of you spent many more years there than me, and I do understand the confusion and loneliness of leaving. But at the end of the day as I look back, I am still grateful to them for my salvation- I would not know Jesus if I had not gone to LFF.

That is hard for me to say; while I was there I walked through a lot of pain- I was "in love" with someone who was very close to leadership, we were doing marriage homework when some of this happened and I believe he was counseled to break up with me; he did it on the phone before a CCF. Obviously, I didn't feel up to going to CCF, but a little later I got a call from my HCL (who knew he had broken up with me) telling me I should be at CCF that night, and missing it was selfish. I only tell you these things because I want anyone reading to know that I did go through pain- but again I say I learned some things about Jesus that were real, and I did learn how to listen to Him. What is ironic is that they taught me to listen to God, and it was that very teaching that allowed me to hear God when he started telling me LFF wasn't where he wanted me.

I have been gone from LFF for over 5 years, and although the wounds left scars, the good thing about scars is that they remind you of what happened, but after a while they stop hurting. I am closer to the Lord now than I ever was; I am married to a fabulous man and we are serving the Lord together, and God has worked things out for me in a way I could not have imagined. So I hope this gives people who have just left, or who are stuck there (either physically or emotionally) some hope. God really does work all things out for good for those who love him- I am proof. We need to stay focused on loving God, and remember that he is our hope and our salvation not a church or a leader- they only have as much power to still hurt us as we let them have- When I finally turned all my pain over to Jesus he really did touch me, and he really did heal me, and yes I am still skeptical of some leadership but I feel like with him, I can heal from that too- he is my hope.

God Bless You All

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him

More from the comment box...

2005-10-10T01:11:00.000-07:00

It seems there are those that do not frequently check the comment boxes. Thus, here is a comment to a previous post that we feel is both heartfelt and indicative of that which remains at LFF. This saddens us in that, "omission" is arguably out of the question. We leave this comment open for discussion and hope, our readers can provide some insight into what still takes place at LFF.

To the person who is still at LFF:

You have no idea how often you have been and continue to be deceived at LFF. I know many who have caught the Vances in lies about various issues and it has occurred even in the last few months. I caught Kari in several lies and I was deeply grieved that someone who had no grace on others she had caught lying, would be so into the practice herself.

When asked about issues that are causing people to leave, the Vances frequently reply "I don't know what you are talking about". The truth be told, people have gone to them over and over again with abuse issues and they won't hear it.

You can't tell me it's changed when they continue to refuse to come clean about things they have done to people and continue to lie. They want everything to look good but won't face the rot that is at the core. By their own teaching if things were really different they would have "Repented and confessed".
Neither of things have happened.

Please remain open to things God puts in your heart. Too many of us were afraid we were critical, or something was wrong with us so we kept our mouths shut or shut down our intuition. We didn't tell the emperor (or emperess in this case) about her lack of clothing.

Don't be afraid to contact people who have left (there is over 250 in the last couple years) and ask questions. You will find many of us are going on loving God but are still deeply hurting from LFF and are in the healing process.

From the comment box...

2005-10-08T00:03:00.000-07:00

I don't know how you all find healing. Really, it's great that you do. But it's not so easy for everyone.

I myself have chosen indifference. I choose to not face the emotions and just put them away. Really, I now have no desire to go to any church. Yes, I do value friendship with God, but I struggle with understanding how He could let these pastors at LFF do so much wrong in His name. That kills me. I thought I could hear from God--His still small voice that I used to be able to guide my life with. But my days at LFF ruined that. I cannot hear God anymore-its all confusion. Why? All the times the leaders at LFF told me that what I heard from God was not accurate. The times they said that "God told them otherwise, and for me to proceed without their blessing would be sin." I don't know what I hear. It's a jumbled mess of confusion. Sometimes I think I hear some direction, but then I hear the still small voice on my other shoulder of some LFF person berating me for my "spiritual immaturity" and I lose it. I can't make THAT voice go away.

When I try to live for Christ it is so frustrating it brings me to tears. I can't do it without the scars from LFF being torn wide open. They hurt and I end up so confused. I don't know how to deal with it so I just shove my feelings. I avoid things having to do with Faith because that's the only way I know to deal with it. At least having the thoughts out of my mind I don't feel the pain.

How can you forgive? I have no desire to do so. Sure the Bible says to...but the Bible is paper and leather...it hasn't ever been in my situation so I have a hard time believing that it even applies. Who do I blame? I blame the current head pastors of the church and the campus pastor the most. They screwed with my head so much, all in the name of their little games. They tried so hard to get me in their system. I was one who could bring several other people along with me, so they tried very hard to rein me in. I was with them for awhile, but through it my heart for Christ was broken so badly I don't even want to try to pick up the pieces. I blame them. I have no idea how to forgive them, and am filled with scorn towards anyone who has the audacity to suppose I should just up and forgive them.

I don't blame myself. I was doing what I honestly thought was right. But because of that-my honest, pure intentions that left me ripe for manipulation-because of that I can't seem to forgive. They stole a lot of my life in college. They stole my heart out of my chest. Broke up my relationship with my first love Jesus and my second love who they said was not appropriate for someone of my spiritual potential. They said to pursue that relationship I would be unequally yoked. I may have missed the ONE for me.

I don't know where to go from here. I don't want anything to do with a church. I don't trust pastors, and I never will again. I see parts of LFF in every church I have ever tried since, and that scares the hell out of me.

My life without church and without christian friends seems to be going just fine. I have no problems, few worries, and don't have to deal with the pain and the scars from that infernal church on the hill in pullman. But deep down I know that I am missing God's best for my life and I don't know how to find it. I feel like it was stolen from me in my days in pullman. I feel like it's too late, and what could have been God's best for my life is now another trophy on vance's mantle.

I haven't been able to make it through a praise and worship experience without tearing up and having to leave. That was my favorite thing, and it was the biggest pawn that was used at LFF to manipulate me. It was what I lived for, and now it seems to be the death of me. What a legacy you have created, Joe and Kari.

I am sorry that my comment here is so negative, but I hope you see from it that not everyone finds the healing that is so trivially purported. Not everyone has been able to find a church and move on. I suppose there may be others like me, and in that I find a meager amount of solace. I wish there were none of us. Most of all I wish I could go back and erase what has been done. To go back in time to the moments that mattered most, and stand up to the people at LFF and tell them they were wrong. To look them in the eye and defy the manipulation and control with strength I found in my own integrity. But I know that will never be. What is done is done, and I live with the regret.

I only have two wishes now. One to be able to forget--I have no desire to forgive. And two, that no one else would have to be like me. You see, this is continuing to happen, and every day there become more people hurt by this place, some in big ways and others in small. And it is SO EVIL AND WRONG!!! I write with tears streaming down my face, thinking of myself, but even more of some of my old friends who are still there. People who HAD so much potential who have wasted it on such a shallow existence that is LFF. People unknowingly wrecked by a regime who doesn't even care for them. And that kills me. Why doesn't someone stop it? Why doesn't GOD stop it? I don't understand

First of all thank you for your comment, we admire your honesty and appreciate where your are at. Healing is never easy, it takes time; sometimes a lifetime is not enough. We, in no way intend to be trite when referring to this process nor do we wish to infer it is easy. Healing is anything but easy, it is painful, it requires resolve, tears, and many times, more pain. In this case it is much like when a surgeon must re-break a bone to align it properly before true healing can take place. In writing of healing, we encourage people to find it, but know that it is much easier said than done. It cannot be rushed; and in many cases the slow working hands of time seem only to lessen the pain but never truly erase it.

Everything I experienced at LFF, is now a jumbled mess. There was plenty of good and plenty of evil. My desire for more of Him was stifled. My pursuit of true worship was met with harsh words that served only to highlight my perceived "inadequacies." My relationship with Christ was crippled by those I let in my life to help it. And in all of this mess came an overwhelming sense of defeat. I have been overcome by a host of crushing emotions. And the pain and confusion have been accentuated by the irony of the situation. For truly it is ironic that the acceptance, love, compassion, and joy I sought in the church, I found outside the church. While the abuse, pain, and manipulation I thought I was escaping in salvation, greeted me in the form of a pastor. Some of the most Christ-like people I have met are in fact unsaved. And those who claimed to be the most "Christian" dealt my Christianity blow after blow, pausing only to scold my wincing.

So, at the risk of sounding cliche, I know where you are at. Though I am not familiar with all the details surrounding your confusion; I think I understand. If you feel I am way off base, I apologize and ask that you disregard this entire response. Obviously, you are still hurting and so are many others, myself included. The pain you feel, is at times overwhelming, and forgiveness of those who placed it upon you is the furthest thing from your mind. You have suffered specific wounds at the hands of those you trusted. You have been exploited, looked down on, manipulated, and cast out by those you thought had your best interests in mind. What has been done to you is sinful and unfortunately your situation is not unique; there are a host of others. That simple fact lead to the creation of this place.

It is deeply painful to all of us to read your story as many of us have been through that which you describe. Some of us with the same offending parties and others with different. And we, like you, were made to feel wrong for being hurt, we were criticized, trivialized and in many cases ostracized. All because of some subjective opinion of our perceived spirituality or level of commitment. What happened to you, to me, to all of us, IS WRONG. And one of the biggest challenges is moving on when those who wronged you will hear none of it and want nothing to do with you. Many of us, administrators and readers, have been labeled rebels, dissenters and cynics by the "nurturing shepherds" we so blindly trusted.

Enter confusion, guilt, inability to trust, anger, bitterness, unwanted tears, and broken relationships. And all this at the hands of Christ's Church? Surely a good God would never let this happen. But His thoughts are not our own, He knows best and He is bigger. I know, the colloquialisms can ring hollow after hearing them also on the lips of those who have caused this pain. Nevertheless, though their words may at times bring emptiness to the truth, it does not negate the truth. Throughout history some of the most shocking horrors against humanity have been carried out in the name of God. Genocide, rape, murder, and war all purported under the banner of our Savior. Yet God is God and every man a liar. So again I ask that you hear this with a different ear; God is bigger, He knows what He is doing. Even if what He has allowed to take place makes no sense to us; He is God. Here I refer you to the book of Job.

I know this is difficult for you, for all of us. The water is murky and sorting this mess out seems next to impossible. We have nothing but broken pieces and are left to make black and white out of the grey they created. We all hurt with you and we respect your honesty. It is difficult to forgive and that hardship is only magnified when those you must forgive claim no wrongdoing. Even if you choose to forgive them, you may still be labeled the offending party. I know in their eyes they did nothing wrong to me and this demoralizing turmoil is to them, my own making. So, though I have chosen to forgive and move on; I am still plagued by confusion, a menacing inability to trust, and these wounds that seem as if they will never leave me.

I have forgiven and yet I find myself still forgiving. At times anger overwhelms me and I must deal with it all over again. Is it false repentance? That is what they would have me believe but that is simply not true. These wounds are specific and they are many. At times the pangs come in the least expected moments. I believe (and I am no way touting this as doctrine, take it or leave it) when Jesus said seventy times seven He was referring to the same offense. He knows the human heart and knows that sometimes you must forgive the same thing countless times. So yes, I have forgiven, and yes, I am forgiving, and yes, I will forgive. Many times forgiving is the last thing I want to do and in doing so I re-introduce the hurt.

Yet while forgiveness has come, trust has not. I can honestly say, I will never trust the senior pastors at LFF again. To do so would be foolish. This fact has been a crucial part of my healing. I can forgive but I don't have to allow them any power or influence in my life ever again. I would never ask a victim of abuse to prove the validity of their forgiveness by spending some quality alone time with their abuser. Why? Because the abuser destroyed their trust and while one might forgive the abuse, it would be idiotic to expect that in forgiveness lies restored trust. In forgiveness you will find the first steps toward recovery but forgiveness never requires that you open yourself up again to those who hurt you. Please do not hear us as those who would glibly tout healing. We know it is a long process and for some this process may never end, and that is okay.

We wish in no way to prod you to forgive or to be healed. That is something only you can do and only when you are ready. Within the walls of LFF were systems that were supposed to mold you into the uniform "Christian" they envisioned. Here that is not the case. There is no secret formula, no program, no crew and no meeting with oversight that will heal you or set you free. Instead, there is only prayer. We all pray that healing takes place and forgiveness comes to each and every one of us. Yet, we realize this will be a unique experience for everyone, never easy, never shallow, and never brief.

We come here at many different stages in the healing process. In this place we hope that many may find some sort of healing. We hope those who have made it further in the process can offer both encouragement and sympathy to those who have yet to take the first step. We offer this place as a community forum on the road to recovery. We expect nothing of anyone who comes here and seek to rush this process for no one. It is our true desire to aid any of you in any way that we can. Though none of us will ever be able to erase the wrong doing or the painful memories; we hope the words on this page bring some form of relief. We pray God blesses every one of you no matter where you are in your journey. We desire that each one of you know a true and simple relationship with God. This can be replaced by nothing, and even if your trust in any pastor is forever destroyed please don't let that destroy your trust in God.

Freedom

2005-10-06T15:03:00.000-07:00

Where is the freedom we were supposed to have in Christ? Where is the joy, the love, the peace that passes all understanding? Instead, within the walls of LFF, so many people were trapped, slaves to acceptance, rules of holiness, and "the servant's heart." God is not the author of confusion and yet confusion has been one of the predominant fruits in the lives of those who attended Living Faith Fellowship. The e-mails we have received attest to this. They attest to the hurt, the inability to trust, and the chaos brought on by the tirades of shepherds. We came for clarity and left confused.

And then came this place, a place to name one's pain; a place to help free people from the guilt they should never have felt. A guilt that was heaped on them for feeling wronged. The fact is people were wronged. Yet the teachings of LFF have conditioned the hurting to feel as if they are sinning for acknowledging that pain. Since when did someone have the audacity to label pain as sin, and questions as a critical spirit?

This is not a pity party or a place to foster bitterness. Yet, those who have never felt this pain or who have caused these hurts would say otherwise. That is simply not true. This is a place in which you can be free. Free to acknowledge the pain, free to name that hurt, free to cry, and free to let go. Though scars remain, in time the pain diminishes.

We are glad people have been able to see that they were wronged. Many have carried these wounds rooted in confusion for far too long and it has crippled them. Yet, that which happened to you is not your fault; don't let anyone place their own sins on your head.

There is freedom and love and acceptance in Him. This comes freely and you can do nothing to earn it. It is unconditional, never contingent on your service or level of commitment. Know His love in its beauty and let no man take that from you. His healing is as real as your pain. There is no point in waiting for those who have wronged you to seek your forgiveness or even admit they failed. That may never happen and it matters not.

Thank you for the e-mails of encouragement, for the dialogue through comments and most of all for your support. We never thought this site would have such an impact. The site continues to see increasing traffic. In the last week alone, we have seen over 1,200 unique visitors. Truly, something good has and will continue to come of this. God bless you all and know His healing.

An encounter...via e-mail

2005-10-04T19:43:00.000-07:00

I wrote this a few weeks ago after speaking with my former senior pastor after years of being away. You can post it if you want, perhaps someone will relate.

It was Saturday. The rain and the sun traded blows, each trying to establish dominance. But this battle was an afterthought, only an atmosphere with which to hold the ensuing battle. The real struggle was all mental and thus it took precedence in my troubled mind. Saturday's conflict was not as cut and dry as the classic skirmishes our society has afforded us. For, in this scene, the lines between good and evil, between right and wrong, between black and white were all blurred. Instead there was only a murky grey. Good was evil and evil was not definable.

Saturday was a flash back. But this was no mental snapshot, instead I was physically thrust into an all-too-real shadow of my haunting past. A past in which you lorded your authority over me; you were shepherd and I was sheep. A past that brings restless nights, empty days, and surprising moments of confusing agony. Time and its intrinsic healing ability have rounded off the edges and numbed the acuteness. Yet, there is no amount of time that will ever erase these scars. In a moment, I am undone. Time and all its power mean nothing. Clarity is lost and I am once again left to make black and white out of grey. Your presence has again muddied these waters.

Somehow, your delusions transcend everyone present, yet they baffle me. Will you ever see the world beyond your mind? The world in which you are wrong; the world in which the pain you inflict is visible not to me but to you? To me, this will never make sense. To you, there was never any sense to make. In grey you see black as white and wrong as right. Your pride holds your humility and your pleasure, pain. Your lies are infallible, to you, they are truth. Saturday is gone and my innocence is lost. Saturday is gone and your innocence is reassured. Somehow, someway, you win. You brought awareness to my pain. You forced me to assign words to your delusions. You confirmed my fears; your words still hurt. I told myself you could hurt me no more, but Saturday melted my defenses leaving me in speechless horror as they became water running through my hands.

An e-mailed response to the previous post

2005-10-01T23:11:00.000-07:00

I apologize in advance as this became rather lengthy rather quickly. I think you will find it relevant in response to the previously e-mailed question. I read the last post and could not help but respond. This blog has been very helpful for me in naming and dealing with my pain. But no post has required a response of me until now. And so, to whoever you are with the questions…You are right, no church is perfect, churches are run by people and therefore will always have flaws. As to the vagueness, there are specific issues all over the blog. Perhaps they lack the gory details, but they are there, you just have to see them. If I had the ability I could walk you through the whole blog with a highlighter showing you the causes of people’s pain. It seems the administrators here have chosen not to relate one time instances or many detailed descriptions because by most measures it would be trivial.

If people were to recount the detailed interactions and certain instances that caused the departure of anyone; it would take hundreds if not thousands of pages. Yet that desire for details is something that is inherently wrong with LFF. It is driven by information, and that information only flows one way. There are numerous weekly and monthly meetings to discuss the information and sin in the lives of sheep. But, this is pointless, it is a waste of all of our time to sit here and argue about what kinds of details are passed along about sheep to “shepherds.”

So perhaps you cannot see the specifics here and that is fine, allow me to help your search. As you can tell from reading, the most common topics are these; spiritual abuse, control, abuse of authority for personal gain, arrogance of leadership, and failure of the pastors to accept any point of view besides the their own. It is easy to miss all of these things going on around you; after all they are being done in the name of God. At times I missed them too.

Frankly, asking for intimate details is a bit of an odd request given that there are obviously an overwhelming amount of people that are hurt and only now finding healing. Whether you realize it or not, you are in a fact asking victims of abuse to recount the explicit details of that abuse. Is the pain not good enough, not real enough, must you hear the intricacies too?

I realize that for some it is hard to believe without unequivocal proof. So I will oblige you with some of the details of my own experience. Those in current leadership will deny this; again chalking it up, like usual, to gross misinterpretations on my part due to sin in my life. I will be the first to tell you that is no news; I am a sinner. Anyone who says they have no sin in their life is nothing more than a delusional liar, thus a sinner. So writing this off because of one’s sins is completely irrelevant, a shoddy argument at best. I say that only because this is the first route taken by the pastors to discredit the truth. However, it would be a waste of all of our time for me to sit here and make up some story about the church.

I went to LFF for nearly twenty-five years. Born and raised, a true product of the church. I have been through it all there. I have been yelled at, screamed at, and even cussed at by the former and current pastors. All this in the name of God and “righteous anger.” Remember, God only chastens those He loves. Oh, and my countenance I was always getting an earful for that. If I wasn’t smiling, I was sinning and so the yelling came again. People who have been around there long enough constantly said there are double standards and this one is classic. How many times have I been chewed out for my frown by the frowning pastor’s wife? Countless.

I saw my best friend’s family publicly humiliated for the sins of their son. These sins were the subject of a special members meeting that we were all required to attend. The poor choices of a teenager became the topic of discussion for the evening. The family was publicly stripped of their leadership responsibilities. They ended up moving away from Pullman and we were all forbidden to talk to them. The church had forced their own out; those who had given so much were ostracized by the leadership. For what? This tore me up inside, my best friend was gone and I could not talk to him because he was a “sinner.” Good thing Jesus talked to sinners or we would all be lost.

I continued to attend with my family but hated the fact that my parents were always doing church stuff. I rarely saw my parents as they worked for the church and were either working, ministering, or in their free time assisting the pastors with projects around their house. The church said family comes before ministry but they required their members to put family after church. This was never said but as every preacher loves to tell us, “Actions speak louder than words.” This was not just my family; the same was true of all of my friends’ families. Families always took a back seat to church. I was troubled by this and countless other hypocrisies.

At 16 I told the senior pastor that I did not want to go to the Christian School any more because we didn't have a football team and I wanted to play football. He replied by crawling across the top of his desk in a screaming fit of rage. He kicked me out of my house, right in front of my parents without even consulting them. I looked at my parents and they said nothing, we all knew to question his judgment, asinine as it was, was never tolerated. I spent two nights at a friend’s house before coming home and begging to go back to the school. Not because I wanted to, because I had to.

I hated the school, hated the church and hated the system I was trapped in. I was told how to walk, how to talk, how to act, and what to think. The growing number of discrepancies I saw caused me to never take anything at face value. And so I inwardly questioned. Questioned policies, questioned double standards, questioned the godliness of the tirades of the pastor, and questioned this false reality the church had painted for me. I knew questioning was never acceptable but I could not stand it. I could not take these thoughts tearing apart my insides anymore. So I began to ask but never received answers. Instead of being told why the way things were the way they were, I was labeled as a rebel.

I was then constantly in trouble for the tiniest things. Things that were not even issues garnered the wrath of the pastors. I once wore my hat backwards while I was shooting baskets. Like it or not, it is easier to make a shot if you are not hitting the bill of your hat every time you shoot the ball. Well, someone saw me with my hat turned backwards and reported me to the senior pastor. He then brought me in front of everyone at members meeting and while the current senior pastors watched silently, he yelled at me, hit me in the face, and banned me from wearing a hat ever again on LFF property. Apparently, he decided backwards hats were rebellious and therefore, to him, I was rebelling.

Suddenly, everything about me was being judged, the clothes I wore, the people I talked to, even the Christian music I listened to. Yes, Christian music. The senior pastor even preached a message one Sunday saying in front of the entire congregation that he was angered by the fact that some of the people who grew up here had gone to a Christian rock concert in Spokane. I was in college but I had to beg for his forgiveness for being rebellious and going to a Third Day concert. Unfortunately I was a little early, no one in the church yet approved of the music they now sing in worship services.

It became too much, I hated that place and I could not take it anymore. I began doing what I wanted and not telling anyone about it. But they found out; I was ex-communicated from the church. The current senior pastor and an assistant came to my apartment and told me I was no longer allowed to speak to my family, my friends, or anyone associated with LFF because of “un-repentance” in my life. Was I sinning? Emphatically yes. But sin was not tolerated so they wanted nothing to do with me. My friends were told, “Don’t talk to him; he made his own bed now let him lie in it.” And so it was, for three years I had almost no contact with my family and all those I grew up with; it was not allowed.

And as quickly as it began, it ended. I wanted my family back and my life without God was a wreck. I returned to my home late one evening and once again found God. It was perfect, innocence at last. I loved everything about Him, and was enamored by anything that had to do with my new found Savior. I asked forgiveness of many people for my rebellion and for believing lies about them. My joy was complete

As the school year approached, I was asked if I wanted to be a JCD. I said, “No.” But “no” was the wrong answer. I was asked to meet with the soon to be campus pastor who strongly encouraged me to become a JCD. I was still not convinced so the current senior pastor met with me and again strongly encouraged me to join. And I did. Within a month I hated it. I was in trouble for not filling out reports or not spending enough time doing this or that. The system had taken hold again; backbreaking rules replaced true love and an innocent desire for God. Then all at once the joy I had vanished.

As I became more involved I was shocked. The things that had troubled me as a youth did in fact happen. I asked forgiveness for what I thought were juvenile misconceptions on my part. I sought forgiveness for being critical of the double standards, forgiveness for thinking of the pastors as arrogant, and forgiveness for assuming the anger (verbal abuse) that had driven me away was ungodly. Yet, all these things were still happening; I was led to believe I needed to ask forgiveness for the sins against me. I became confused and the closer I looked the more I saw. I brought these issues -- which I could give you even more specifics but it would overwhelm you -- to people in leadership and to my surprise, some of them agreed. But the senior pastors felt otherwise.

Then it snapped, I saw many of my friends start to leave the church for the exact things that had troubled me in the past. I tried to point out why they were leaving to the new pastors but it was useless. I had no voice and that which deeply troubled me was to them, untrue. So I opted for anonymity. I drafted the letter that appears on the very bottom of this site and sent it to the pastors. (I was a little surprised when I found it here on this blog, but I am glad someone is making use of it.) It became a witch hunt. And after several weeks I came forward and claimed my previously unsigned correspondence. This led to several very long meetings that went absolutely nowhere. I did receive an apology from the senior pastors though…”We are sorry you feel this way, but how you feel is not accurate.” That was a first, up to that point in my life I had never been told of my errant ways in an apology. I was made to feel guilty and I myself apologized for writing the letter. Which in retrospect was a mistake; I said nothing untrue and was only trying to stop the efflux of members.

After a few more pointless meetings, I left. Since then, I have seen hundreds of people leave for the exact same things I tried to point out; control, manipulation, double standards, and abuse of authority. But what grieves me most are the ones that really tried the ones who really “pressed in.” My friends on the worship team and in the CCF band were forced out for not being submissive to someone’s personal idea of holiness. For not choosing the “songs God wanted to hear for worship.” For refusing to admit, and I quote, “LFF is the best church in world.” For questioning when what they heard from God was not what their pastor was telling them. For singing songs in worship that God’s song selector had not yet approved or had a chance to sing on a Sunday. Apparently the songs God wants to hear on a Friday must be sung on a Sunday first. He seems to like a larger audience to introduce potential worship service classics. For many reasons people have been pushed out and innocence destroyed. These reasons coupled with the inability of the senior pastors, past and present, to accept any differing point of view or minor criticism from anyone has driven a host of people from LFF.

And so here a growing number of the departed come, expressing their pains, searching for God in the mess “His anointed” made for them. And the thing that hurts them beyond what you can even imagine is the fact that the church they loved and poured so much into wants nothing to do with them. Its leaders label the pain, as generalized complaining and ungodly criticism rooted in sin. The confused lives of the departed are held up as “I told you so’s,” aiming to force others into submission. The leadership thinks they know best and if you feel otherwise be prepared to pay. They say they have changed but it is only appearance. There is still the underlying spirit of manipulation and control and it is still crushing people’s souls.

I apologize for the long e-mail and can only imagine the varying interpretations it will get if you post it. I am not angry at anyone or anything that happened to me. I do not blame any of my actions, both in youth and adulthood, on anyone. I made my own choices and so did those who hurt and manipulated me. I have forgiven them and moved on. It is not anger I feel toward them, instead I pity them in their crippling inability to see the pain they have inflicted and continue to inflict on many. I hope by giving you some of the details you requested you will see the topics on this site are in fact real. There are many more details but I have already gone on far too long. I know there are those who will interpret this as bitterness and that is fine. Sometimes it is hard to infer the proper meaning through words on a page. I cannot control the way this is received and can only hope somehow, someway it will help someone.

Questions via e-mail...

2005-09-30T18:15:00.000-07:00

Dear Truth About LFF Blogspot Persons,

I came across the blog and read most of it. I have some questions about it that I hope you can answer. First, let me say that my husband and I are still attending LFF and we have been for 5 and 7 years. While we believe that no church is perfect and that LFF is certainly included in that statement, we haven't found anything so disturbing to make us leave. We think it's a good body and we have grown a lot here.

I do not think badly of you for making this website and pray for you all that your hurts will be healed and that forgiveness can come. I do not know what went on to make you leave, but I assume that each reason is very different. God Bless you as you grow in Him.

Anyway, my questions:

1. This blog seems really vague to me. Everyone seems hurt and mad at LFF but there are no specific instances of stuff that happened. Is this on purpose? I am curious to know what things happened to make people so hurt and angry at this church.

2. The files. I heard about these too and was upset. I went and talked to a pastor about this and asked straight up about these files. I was told that yes, files were kept, but they were in a locked file cabinet in the evangelism office. They were brief, no details and kept only for legal purposes, such as if someone tried to sue LFF for whatever. No pastors ever looked at these unless it was to add something to a file. I was told that the Vances decided to destroy ALL of these files and not to keep them anymore because it caused so many people to stumble. I was told that many churches kept files like this. However, on the blog there was a post about these files that said they were very, very detailed and had pictures, lists of sins, conversations, etc. Are you sure this person was telling the truth? How long ago did he/she find these files while vacuuming? Did s/he ever talk to anyone about them?

I know these are kind of long, but I am curious about these two items in particular. You can post these questions on the blog if you want, that way I may get some more opinions that just one person's.

Thank you

Question - Who is to blame?

2005-09-29T13:13:00.000-07:00

A question from e-mail...

I was wondering if the mutual feeling was that only the people still in "leadership" are to blame or if everyone that was involved for many years still are blamed for their involvement?

I'm not sure how other people feel about this subject, but I hold no grudges against those that have admitted their failure in their involvement for so long and did repeatedly try to reach the "leadership" before leaving LFF.

I just want a few answers and some feedback on my feelings.

Even if this is not posted on the blog, (I understand that this question could be too volatile) could you send me feedback about what others may or may not have said on this subject.

Thanks!

P.S.
For all the kids from LFF: We're all going to be okay. That wasn't the end of our lives. And now we can dream really big and live life the way it was meant to be lived. There is no one to stop us. Live your dreams!!!!!!

We feel this is an issue that deserves a wider audience and are therefore bringing this e-mail to "the front page" to discuss it. First and foremost, none of us hold any grudges toward anyone involved past or present at LFF. Obviously we are not perfect and at times resentment gets the better of all of us but we are all working past that. We recognize that many people were involved in many ways at LFF and many of these people were manipulated into doing things they have since come to regret. It has become obvious to a great deal of people, that LFF does in fact ruin lives. Some may say that is a bold statement, but we are all still trying to overcome the stones cast in our paths. It is common for people like me, who have left the church, to struggle in finding God, and struggle even more in fitting into any kind of church structure. For instance, I love my current church, but every time I walk into a service, all my scabs from the wounds inflicted by LFF leadership, are instantly torn off. It is a true paradox in that attending church both slows and expedites the healing process.

The question seems to be, "Who is to blame for the pain?" I, for one, take the blame for allowing myself to be manipulated, exploited and abused. The entire structure and culture of LFF quickly sucks one in and it is easy to fall into the trap of allowing the lines to blur between church and God. We have found it important to keep in mind that there is a huge difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. We hate no one at LFF but the fact is the founding pastors and current pastors are stifling the spiritual growth of many. Arrogance has lead to abuse of power and gross misinterpretation of Scripture. Many of us have since been reconciled with much of the former and transitional LFF leadership.

During the church transition a lot of things changed. Pain found a voice and that voice was shot down. Those of us that were there as the Bardens relinquished power to the Vances saw a true opportunity to see LFF make large strides in the right direction. We also found those in the transitional leadership team felt the same way. Finally, our pain was acknowledged as real, and we were not scolded for our agony. As we related our hurts to most of the pastors who had been at LFF for years, they related. They took these issues to the top. Unfortunately, try as they may, those on the transitional leadership team had no success. They were silenced as well; the Vances would have none of it. Pastors, care leaders, and members were forced out, many of them for trying to help many of us. True the current leadership will say, God called them somewhere else, and thankfully he did. But those who left had been there for much of their lives and the reason for the departure was due largely in part to their silenced voices. Their efforts are greatly appreciated by all of us and many of us maintain strong relationships with these people as they helped shoulder our burdens.

Again, we hold no grudges and if any of us find unforgiveness finding a foothold in our lives we work hard to rid ourselves of that. So while reconciliation has come to many relationships there are some that all logic would say will never be reconciled. There was a pattern at LFF set into to motion by the founding pastors and assisted and now carried out by the new senior pastors. This pattern of abuse of power, manipulation, nepotism, and the destruction of many people's fragile relationships with God, is wrong. By being silent, we have seen more people hurt and lost and we cannot do so any more. Though we will most likely never be able to break this cycle with our words we may save others from the same pain. For decades now people have tried to stop the abuse and sin at LFF and for decades they have failed. It would be foolish of us to think that in somehow this website would lead to other results. We can call attention to the the hurt and that which causes it. In doing so we hope to aid in both our own and your healing.